less air, longer hold???? can this be right

[DiverTodd]

Originally Posted by yoda turtle

I am sure I read some where that jaques mayol advocated staying away from packing..... any one??

The main purpose of packing is to give you more air to equalize with at depth, so it's best left for use during deep dives. Myself, I only pack when I'm doing target dives. Although, for static, it can be useful as a stretching tool; just BE CAREFUL, and don't overdo it! Beginners can injure themselves very easily when attempting to pack more than they're capable. Honestly, I would suggest staying AWAY from packing, until you've had proper instruction.

Todd

[yoda turtle]

Hi tbgsub, you are living the life I always wanted.... wow!! am going to give your idea a go when i next do some static... sounds interesting, think I may have the same advantages ... good lungs slow heart...

[yoda turtle]

Thanks for that Divertodd, must admit the whole packing thing is a little further along the road than were I am now so Yeah I will wait untill my course in june.

[alexrom1207]

Be cautious about deep rapid breaths. I'm definitely no expert, but that sounds a little like hyperventilation to me. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable guys could chime in.

[tbgsub]

I only do two to three deep sort of rapid (20 seconds apart still keeping the exhale twice as long as the inhale to keep heart slow) breaths before a dive but don't extend the total dive time past 2 mins regardless of depth.

My depths are nothing impressive only between 30-60ft, but I have been to 75 and felt that another 5 feet would be easy enough.

I pack slightly maybe 3 times only during static land training, but avoid packing when diving. (i DONT LIKE THE TIGHTNESS IN MY CHEST THAT MAKES ME ANXIOUS and that might disturb my heart rhythm to much, because I am not used to packing; nor do I want to be+ I am in line with Jaque Mayol's thinking)

Last Saturday I dove and felt really alert just prior to diving, just breathing deeply and slowly but not hyperventilating, and not tingling, just alert, jfocusing more on evacuating my residual volume with deep exhales and normal inhales to near full volume. I think it had alot to do with the online Static apnea table exercises.

Some locals think if they hyperventilate they can stay down longer, but I know that is fooling with the return instinct too much for my tastes.

I do plan on experimenting with dynamic land training, sometimes when riding a Triathlon-Bike (because the posture from the bikes geometry facilitates an open chest and deeper than normal biking breathing) I pedal for 20 strokes in apnea then breath 5 deep slow breaths and pedal for 20 more till I can no longer prevent breathing heavily, then I go on with the ride for a mile or so and start over again. but I haven't done this in some time. I think I like the static apnea tables better.

jI do know that high Cardio workouts bring down the resting heart rate which is good for Free diving, but I also know 50 year old free divers who are literally fat and out of shape by normal standards, and who smoke and have a bottom time of 2 mins / 3 mins overall and down to 80+ feet spearfishing, But I bet if they were healthy they would impressive.

what do you guys recommend for dynamic land training?

I am preferring to save the training on the land, and let the improvements show in the water under relaxed conditions (keep in mind I am a recreational freediver/spearfisher)

I have been using the static apnea tables online from a UK website, and I think it is GREAT!! I am feeling more comfortable after doing only two sets the day before spearfishing! Thanks for the comments.

best of luck to you all and stay safe.

Scott in Saipan, AKA (TBGSUB)

[yoda turtle]

Hey Scott, great reply..I also like the mayol aproach and am gonna stick with it. we (thats my wife also) have been in to triathlons for a few years and you're right what you say about tha aero position.. i do the same thing but more at random when out on the bike. I suppose we will get an influx of warnings about he dangers of apnea on the bike now . Ok heres the safe version. I also train dynamic apnea on the bike..
10 mins warm up to around 60% Hr max then 8 sets of 20 seconds apnea in a high gear To simulate sprint with a Rest Interval of 1.45. spin in light gear and sit up out of aero to get max relaxation. on the rest I like to take long slow breaths (not very comfortable at first but it gets better). go easy on this set at first just so you can decide if its your thing. in the pool when I am not able to do dynamic apnea.... (no partner) I do hypoxic training from my swimclub days.....100m front crawl breathing every 3 every strokes,100m breath on 5 strokes and 100m breath on every 7 strokes. Ido that through 3 times with 15 seconds rest interval between each 100m, start on reps of 50m If you can't make it and increase through 75m up to 100m. I use paddles to for a bit more fun. when you get good at it move up to breaths on 5,7,and 9. its a fairly standard swim drill in swim clubs and works a treat. I know exactly what you meen about the guys that don't train and even worse smoke too like my swim soach and training partner(swimming not freediving) he gets in the pool after a three month break for partying and general debauchery gives me a 50m advantage in a 200m fly race and then kicks my arse in to touch.. its just different for everybody Let me know if you get any more training ideas.
have fun and be cool,
martin.

[yoda turtle]

wow!
Forgot to mention that the Bike apnea is done on a turbo Trainer.
sorry about that....

[Atlantis Fire]

Apnea walking is about the only dryland exercise I do, other than the tables. I know there's always the chance of blacking out while doing it, but I'm on a university campus and there's always tons of people around. Although it might be interesting explaining myself if I did pass out. Can imagine the responses? "You were doing what?!!!"

[yoda turtle]

Yeah, that would be a bit hard to explain and could get you a bit of a "strange guy" rep. Hey I took delivery of my new Mono fin today, have to wait till thursday to try it out. cant wait !!

[DiverTodd]

Apnea walking is a GREAT dry land exercise, I need to get back to doing them myself, now that the weather has warmed up here in Ohio. And enjoy your new mono, Turtle! What kind did you get? I have the "colored mono" from SpecialFins. Ok, I'm off to do my CO2 tolerance table....

Todd

[Jonta]

How long apnea walks is you guys max? Beacuase i hav done about 7 sessions of apnea walks and im up to 2:08 today. Im very new to freediving so is this good/bad? Im just curios.

[yoda turtle]

Hi Divertodd, the mono is from waterways its a "freediver nemo wing".

Jonta, at the moment I dont do walking apnea! I stick to apnea on the turbo trainer with the bike. 2:08 sounds good to me but remember like you I am just a "newbie" I am sure some of the experienced apneists out there on the forum can give you good advice. ok guys have fun and be cool.

[tbgsub]

JONTA and Others,
land dynamic and water dynamic times may vary greatly for a number of reasons.
Tension, familiarity with water submersion, pressure on the body that becomes a diuretic, blood pressure changes from pissing in your wetsuit as the skin pores dialate ect. and that is only the pool, which is still different form Oceanic freediving.

Open Ocean Dynamic is even more of a challenge unless you are familiar with bluewater diving, and it will affect your dynamic times simply from anxiety, which comes back to controlling heart rate with deep exhalation and gaining confidence in the area that you wish to excell in.

After 4-6 days of ocean diving with other people on a freediving outing I am sure much of your anxiety will wain till you approach your dynamic land times, but that is heavily dependent on your newfound comfort at depth, or your lack thereof, but that comfort could hardly compare to the comfort levels of people who spend every weekend in the ocean for 20+ years. (that is what I am up against with trying to extend my bottom times for spearfishing next to veterans who easily go to 80ft for a 3min total dive time)
These veterans arent in shape, they are overweight, and they drink and Smoke like Chimneys, and it is all I can do to stay fit and healthy enough to be submerged from 50-75ft for 2 mins. did I mention that the spearfishing locals only rest typically for 1 minute between dives and stay out for 5 hours at a time? I'm the kind of mind that the Surface interval (which is really importnat) should conservatively be twice the time (resting, evacuating CO2, and Slowly Breathing deeply to control heart rates) as your previous dive time. So 2mins down, 4 mins recuperate and relax, then 2 mins down ect.
In case you were wondering, yes there are stories of SWB among these guys, as well as Sambas, and many of them fish solitary without partners. (That screams crazy on many levels, Medically, Practically, lacking serious land training other than repeditive diving)but I still respect them for having accomplished this sport for more than 30 years (for some of them)

JONTA: I would say your land dynamic times for walking are fairly good. I have been thinking about the practical difference of a home treadmill or a trainer VS. Land Walking and Apnea bycicle riding. I think if you have a partner the safety issue is fairly moot if you alternate apneatic sessions with one another and keep and eye out for erratic behavior.

We spearfish similarly.

Recent true story where the buddy system paid off:

A very experienced Commercial spearfishermen (13 years commercial spearfishing experience) from Israel came out to Saipan, and visited Rota for a 3 day fishing trip. He was fishing with other accomblished veteran, and Medical Doctor who moved to Rota from South Africa (more than 15 years spearfishing e) when the Isralie gentleman shot a 40lb Barracuda at 60ft. It didnt stone the fish. The short version is His line looped around his ankle and the fish dragged him to 80ft in about 6 seconds. He attempted several times to undo the loop that had been tightened almost into a knot with the 40lb fighting fish.
He told me that when he loked up at his diving buddy, he looked like a spec and thats when he began to worry about getting back up. So he took off his fin to get the loop off, trying to get a finger between the loop of his line and his ankle. In the struggle he lost his fin and didnt get the loop off.

His dive buddy, the South African Spearo at the surface was attentive and saw him in need of assistance and dove down to 80ft to pull up on the angry fish side of the line, while they both swam to the surface with a fighting fish still on the line.
it was close to a 3 min dive under duress that must have felt like 20. Dave had his whole life flash in front of him. Both of these guys were heavily experienced, which is why it turned out that none of them blacked out or even Samba'd, which blows me away really, because panic thrown into the apnea dynamic activity adds a whole nother level (Barrel of Monkeys Actually!) of heart rate; one that is wildly out of control.

The reason I interjected with this story, is that I believe that experience helped these guys with their unplanned dynamic rescue activity more than training. I am sure that the Isralie guy was much more calm than I would have been under that circumstance. So I wouldnt rule out getting some comfort with the ocean prior to matching your land dynamic PB. If you take a freedive trip, plan for extra days of low effort apnea in your run up to pushing it just to get your sea mind in the right place.

Best of luck to you all, land trainers included.

TBGSUB

[DiverTodd]

2:08 is very good for a beginner, Jonta! But, are you doing a seated hold before you start walking? I follow a routine that was posted in an article on here last Summer; a set of 4 apnea walks. The first two have a seated hold of 30 secs before starting the walk, and the last two have a seated hold of 1 min before starting to walk. When I do them, I don't go by my time; rather, I go by the distance I was able to cover, using a steady, moderate pace, until I had to breathe.

Todd

[Jonta]

I dont do any seated hold. I just walk all the time in a nice pace.
First i do a 30sek then, 45,1:00,1:15,1:30 then a max.