what is this problem??

[Dioni]

Hello everybody,

I am back from my 6 week vacation at the north of africa and i have a whole lot of questions...

This was the first time i did freediving in the open water, my training consisted of pool exercises ( static and dynamic ).. I have a static of 3.15 and a dynamic of 75-80 meters.

I dived into real warm, clean waters there but the problem was that i couldn't get deeper then 11 meters... I just hadn't had air to compensate..
When i went up, i was relaxed as a *@??!#$%. No problems whatsoever..
( i dived without an wetsuit )

now my question:

How is this possible... i was expecting i could dive to 15 meters EASILY!!!

thanks,

Dioni

[trux]

It was more likely only false sensation due to the increased pressure. At 10m your lungs are only at half of the initial volume, so there is no reason you would not have air for compensation even if you use the Valsalva maneuverer (pushing the air to the Eustachian tube from the lungs with your diaphragm). Of course, using Frenzel is more efficient, so you best start working on it. Look for instructions for example here: Frenzel @ APNEA.cz

Simplified told, for dry training, try compensating your ears on full exhale - you will necessarily and automatically have to switch to Frenzel, and in the same time you'll get used to the sensation of empty chest that is similar in depth, but does not mean you have no oxygen in your blood, or no air for compensation. Once used to the feeling, you'll manage 20m, and likely much more, easily.

[Svedberg]

I have the same "problem". I can static 4 min on land and do dynamic 75m, but once i have to equalize it feels really bad after only 5-7m.

[trux]

Originally Posted by Svedberg

I have the same "problem". I can static 4 min on land and do dynamic 75m, but once i have to equalize it feels really bad after only 5-7m.

This is probably a dfferent problem. If it feels really bad at 5-7m, then you very likely do not equalize at all. Which is of course quite dangerous. First of all get a good check from your ORL doctor, to see if there is not some physiological problem with your ears. If there is none, then learn first equalizing dry. Possibly you simply do not push enough - perhaps, to avoid injury in case there is indeed some obstacle, and you would need to excessively force, the best would be trying your first correct Valsalva maneuver under the supervision of your doctor. Better yet is using Frenzel - it offers fine control, but Valsalva is simpler for most people.

Some of the documents listed here may help you: equalize @ APNEA.cz Especially worthwhile may be watching the UWTV video

[ILDiver]

I have an issue with equalizing at depth. If I do not to a proper Frenzel and end up using my chest, it triggers the urge to breath. I *believe* that is currently a majority of my issue to get deep.

[DivingDane]

ILdiver how deep are you talking? is this if you miss an equalisation using frenzel at say 15m and then do a Valsalva equalisation you get the chest contractions or is it earlier later?

if its later it may just be your body naturally going into contractions and anarobic energy cycle (oxygen saving) not unusual all dovers as far as i know get the "urge to breath" or contractions as they begin to push deeper its natural i normally get my first contractions on the way up from a 30m dive at about 1min 40 sec or in shallow water when spearing at about the same time, normally use this as my turn around point when in shallow water (10m or less) contraction when doing deep dives is normally in the last 8-10m or so on the way up.

DD

[ILDiver]

For me, this is happening on the way down. I believe it is my clearing technique that I need to work on. I probably down't clear often enough and the frenzel clears my ears slowly. I can feel it clearing and it makes noise. Never pain, just slow to clear. Which makes me think I'm behind on clearing in the long run. So this slow clearing causes me to tense my neck, then my chest and I lose my relaxation. Right after the ear clears I relax and my chest goes tight like I've held my breath on dry land for 2 minutes. I turn the dive in a sort of panic and start to kick to the surface. Then I think about what I'm doing and relax and I'm fine again.

I believe if I figure out the timing on clearing I'll do better. On one dive I put both hands over my head and felt REALLY good to 4 meters and then I realized I had to clear and I was getting behind on the clear. I realize even more now how the hands free clearing capable divers are so lucky. The positioning feels so much better.

In general my form needs to improve. I think I might be best served to do repeated dives to 10m and just work on the clearing and my form, then slowly build on that. I think I'll get to deeper depths in less time than my current methods. Right now I'm so focused on where I should be that I get frustrated too easily.

[DivingDane]

i know what you mean i'm the same when i start to get close to my target depth i get a little nervous and loose my cool which causes me to tense up a bit and makes the dive harder than it needs to be, its more just acclimitisation to the depth

i find it easier to equalize earlier so i start at 1-2m then at arund 4, 6, 9, 11, 14, 17 20 and so on, the first equalisation at or near the surface really make the following equalisation MUCH easier. l do find by forcing my self to look at the line directly in front of me and my chin nearly on my chest the air travels to my ears much easier. biggest problem is when i look up to see the Bottom/plate this is wear i always loose my EQing and run into trouble.

so if you try just keeping your eyes fixed on the line dead ahead and chin in i think that along with EQing earlier will make a big difference to your depth. just a thought because i'm going through something very similar but at around the 25m mark now.

DD

[Svedberg]

Originally Posted by trux

This is probably a dfferent problem. If it feels really bad at 5-7m, then you very likely do not equalize at all. Which is of course quite dangerous. First of all get a good check from your ORL doctor, to see if there is not some physiological problem with your ears. If there is none, then learn first equalizing dry. Possibly you simply do not push enough - perhaps, to avoid injury in case there is indeed some obstacle, and you would need to excessively force, the best would be trying your first correct Valsalva maneuver under the supervision of your doctor. Better yet is using Frenzel - it offers fine control, but Valsalva is simpler for most people.

Some of the documents listed here may help you: equalize @ APNEA.cz Especially worthwhile may be watching the UWTV video

I think i expressed myself kinda bad, what i mean is it feels like im about to run out of air. But its just practise practise i guess till i can relax more when doing it.

[trux]

Originally Posted by Svedberg

I think i expressed myself kinda bad, what i mean is it feels like im about to run out of air.

Do you mean you are out of air for successful equalizing like Dioni wrote in the first post? Or out of air like being too compressed hence feeling as if your lungs were empty? Or out of air like not being able to hold anymore?

In the first case my previous advice apply. In the second and third case it is only panic feeling because you are not used to the depth. To avoid the panic when your chest is compressed, train dry or surface breath-holds with empty lungs. You will soon discover you are able to hold your breath for a minute or much longer even with completely empty lungs. That will offer you sufficient self-confidence to stay in great depth even with completely compressed chest. Also when being in 5 m of depth, try relaxing and visualize the same distance as if you were swimming horizontally. If you can do comfortable 50m horizontally, you have enough air to make about the half distance vertically, so there is no reason to fall into panic in just 5 m - you need to realize it is just an baseless psychological feeling. That will help you overcoming it and dive deep without any problem. Stay safe though, and have an experienced buddy watching you closely!

[fcallagy]

Chris have you tried much free immersion? i found this to be beneficial because its a lot easier to control the speed of descent as opposed to finning down as normal. Smetimes if I miss an eq I need to stop and then continue. I have even inverted on occasion and continued the freefall to allow easier eq but found the free immersion in training helps alot.

[azapa]

i'll second that Fergus, I love FI for that reason. Some points from someone (me) who was stuck at 12m or so for some time (now at 42):
- a chest driven "valsavla" classicly fails at about 12 to 15M, if you can't get past that start by learning Frenzel as mentioned above
- (my case) I was never really using enough pressure, it takes more than you think, my ears are very tight and I often end up using a GUUUUUUUUUUUGH sound in the back of my throat to vibrate things loose
- try to separate "urge to breathe hiccups" and real contractions. It's taken me 2 years and i'm still unsure. Swim though (ignore) the first, listen hard to the second (in my case, YMMV) these hiccupy things sort of come from the throat, and as I was explained are more to do with the way pressure is moving the lower lungs/diaphragm apart rather than a real contraction. Confusing. Sorry.
- ever filmed yourself on a dive? the camera may pic up your EQ's vs depth. I have a terrible habit of only equing 2 times to 12 or so meters. I would never have believed it if I had not seen the video. In depth efforts KEEP THE HAND on the nose, elbow tucked in, all the way down. In FI, i do "pull, pull, EQ. pull, pull, EQ" etc until the sink phase messes up my timing

good luck