Descending in a Straight Line

[blueface]

Originally Posted by sgnips

learn the duck dive with no weight, and you'll get 3m down with the belt, effortless

another point is, you can't exactly control your partial breath, so your buoyancy is about to be different from dive to dive, that is: always take full breaths

also, partial breath dives might be extremely dangerous and are something i would not recommend

dive safe!

I practice exhale dives to shallow depths just to get my dive reflex going and I occaisionally take partial breaths using no weight at all and my dive reflex is very strong because I reach the static phase much quicker among other reasons. I know not to expend a lot of energy when doing this. Have you done any exhale dives? If I'm spearfishing I will always take full breaths unless hunting very shallow and I need to stay down.

Another question I have is; When I have to kick hard to get down I start with a few hard kicks followed by medium and then soft. When I reach the static phase I feel pretty good but on the bottom the CO2 feeling comes quicker. How do I stay comfortable longer? My depths are 80 to 90 feet and time is 1:30 or so.

[sgnips]

i did some exhale dive in pool and very few in the sea because i have to look at the newbies and have little time to make something else, anyway i use exhale to learn mouth filling (but it is excellent as a warmup before diving sessions)

i have some trouble interpreting some of the terms you all use here, as they might be different than the straight translation

what you mean by dive reflex? (bloodshift?)
and by static phase? (good feeling due to high O2pp?)

about your second question: i feel the same when making some stops at max depth, usually 25m or more, co2 contractions come just a while after stopping my descent, and feels like they wouldn't have come if i continued to move down (depth and time are just like yours)
i think we have to work on relaxation in depth, i am definitely sure i can make a 30m dive lasting much more than 1:30, even double that time
maybe your kicking lacks technique, or you look for high speed you really don't need, or something else, this resulting in wasting lot of energy and losing relaxation

hope my poor english is working good enough...

[blueface]

what you mean by dive reflex? (bloodshift?)
and by static phase? (good feeling due to high O2pp?)

When I say dive reflex I mean Mammalian diving reflex (lowered heart rate, more relaxed feeling etc.) Static phase is the point of a dive when I stop kicking and sink to the bottom.

I was thinking my fitness level has a lot to do with my short bottom time. My finning technique and duck dive could also improve. Thank you for the response! I will continue to try. I woul like to take a course but I live in Guam and it's far from any place that offers it.

Skip

[sgnips]

i learned that dive reflex has nothing to do with depth: it activates just by getting your body (the face in particular) wet, you can achieve it in your bathroom

sure your fitness level ha something to do with your bottom time, but your mental fitness has much more impact on it: work on

[blueface]

Originally Posted by sgnips

i learned that dive reflex has nothing to do with depth: it activates just by getting your body (the face in particular) wet, you can achieve it in your bathroom

sure your fitness level ha something to do with your bottom time, but your mental fitness has much more impact on it: work on

Thank you so much sgnips I will learn to focus and concentrate more. I know that you are right because sometimes I think too much and I can't relax.

[sgnips]

you're welcome

[cdavis]

sqnips,

I'm a bit surprised and mystified at an instructor making statements about exhale diving that are inaccurate and misleading. Controling your bouyancy with a precise exhale is not difficult, just takes practice to get precise, like anything else in freediving. Partial exhale diving, call it FRC or 1/2 lung or whatever, is a well established technique that, done properly, provides longer dive times, more comfortable dives and better safety. Try using the search function. There are 4 or 5 long threads that pretty well explain the theory and practice.

I completely agree with you on the importance of good entry technique. Its pretty amazing how much deeper you can get with less effort if your technique is good.

Connor

[blueface]

Thanks for the responses! I made a discovery today about my duck dive. My partner said that my leg was not straight (it was bent). When I straightened it out it forced me down much better and down I went at a good rate. I started at 1 meter per second but slowed slightly after about 9 meters. I ended up at the bottom (18 meters in 24 seconds) and went down straighter than before. Erics post really helped along with all here as well. Thanks!

[sgnips]

Connor,
first of all, i think a private message would have been a better choice

as for exhale diving i sincerely don't think they can assure longer dives, comfort and safety (E. Fattah gives some strong advice on them in his document about mouthfill), but i will sure look for and read the posts you talk about, things may have changed, it would be nice to discuss with you on this later
i don't think i wrote something inaccurate nor misleading, as i do not recommend exhale dives to my students, not before they have almost perfect technique and great behavior in water

now, back on topic: the fact is, if you are looking for the right technique, you wouldn't try something harder to learn, nor something that cannot guarantee the same buoyancy conditions from dive to dive, like exhale dives
i'm proud () to say i'm really good in getting the static phase (especially in pool) with partial breaths, i agree it's not difficult to learn that, but an entire dive is something very different

[DivingDane]

hmm not sure if i completely agree partial breath (that is FRC) if practised correctly can be far safer than full inhale diving, the chances of Black out are lower not to mention the bouyancy change at depth is less due to less variation in lung volume over the dive, it does take practise and you will have to start over again as far as depth is concerned but i really dont think we should be saying that partial lung diving is dangerous and that we chould always full lung dive.

personally i prefer very little weight (2kg at most) with a 3mm 2 piece suit and a 50% breath, nice relaxed descent with little bouyancy change and a comfortable ascent with out the need to kick HARD. as a note i'm not diving particularly deep no more than 30m in this way (not good enough to go deeper yet) but do find myself neutral at about 10m ish.

i do agree however that lighter the weight the better off you are in the long run and taking a course with an experienced instructor which has the qualifications to teach (not just a back yarder) will vastly improve both your technique, depth and enjoyment during the dive

DD

[sgnips]

i don't want to start any flame upon exhale diving, but all strongest divers (Herbert, Carlos, Dave and so on) pack before diving (and no little pack: HUGE pack)
that is (my opinion) full breath guarantees the best performance
let's check for some more info and then we'll give those exhale dive threads a new, intense life
bye

[Erik]

sgnips, you're putting out some ideas that make no sense and have been disproven many times.
Someone out for a day of rec diving should not be in a 5 or 7mm suit with no lead. Ridiculous. Not everyone is just training. A spearo with no lead? Please. What if I don't want to hunt at 40 metres in my 7mm suit (that\s what I'd need to get to, to be neutral)? What if I'm a reccreational freediver and I want to be able to relax at -5metres?
And FRC diving has shown it's benefits. Maybe read up on some of this stuff before making blanket statements!

I think you are probably a decent diver and mean well with your comments, but I don't believe you're thinking of the whole community of freedivers- as I said, not everyone here is in your training class.

[sgnips]

not pretending to make a class here erik, just giving an opinion

just let me say your comment makes no sense: i never said it is always the best choice diving with no weight, just said this kind of diving is a good training
who minds a spearo with no weight? i'm not a spearo but experienced enough to know it's a nonsense: different weights for different activities (spearing, diving, deep diving, training, salted or fresh water... need to add more?), that's clear

as for frc dives, i've read some pages from this topic Exhale Diving for the "average" diver but couldn't find any great benefit so far, lot of squeezes, instead, but please, let me read to the end and we'll talk on some basis
what i always wanted to say about frc (maybe my english doesn't make it that clear, sorry) is they are a good training for mouthfill, excellent warmup, especially before deep dives (suggested warmup for those who most suffer squeezing), but need more precautions than usual dives
i myself train frc when i have time and a good buddy
didn't want to offend anyone

[Kars]

On training to go fast and economically strait down.

I and my buddy did practice our duck dives in a 3m pool a couple of months ago. What helped to get a sense of direction, while looking horizontal with the head in line with the swimming direction, is to hold a weight in the stretched out over head arms.

The arching back is usually a challenge with most divers, the result of looking down, causing serious misdirection and much wasted speed and energy through the various compensation moves.

You can play the game of target duck diving, where the goal is to fall, without a swimming movement, onto a target at the bottom.

The way you lift up you legs, one at a time or two makes a difference.
A little forward movement helps.
Dive 1,5m 'over' the line, and while getting deeper gradually swim towards it.
I like to 'roll' in, but the bending and speeds are to be taken into account.
It's always good to practice those basic, but vital skills every once in a while, and especially at the beginning of the season.

Now if I were to teach someone a duck dive, how should I go about?

I think the sense of direction is important to start with.
So some weight in hands, easy breath full lungs and target diving to maximum 5m.
Than gradually adding more technique refinement, less -compensation- movement is better.
Camera recordings are very helpful, because generally the diver's feeling doesn't reflect reality.

Anybody some good idea's how to teach a person how to do good duck dive?


Ending with a little personal story:
I remember when I was diving with my coach in a lake, and that after everybody left the water we continued training duck dives. When we got back to join the others, one asked why we spent so much time duck diving since every duck dive looked already perfect...
My coach replied there was still lot's of room for improvement.
In other words there is a lot that be improved though many wouldn't see what to improve.

Love, Courage and Water.

Kars

[cdavis]

sqnips,

There is a lot of reading in the larger exhale diving threads, take your time. The "average diver" thread doesn't go so much into the theory of frc, which is really simple and logical, but so counter intuitive it was very hard for me to grasp. Check out what Sebastion Murat has to say. Some of it is heavy going because he has a hard time writing simply, but the meat is there if you work at it.

FRC happens to fit my kind of diving perfectly, laid back spearfishing and sightseeing with a bit of line diving thrown in. My comfortable limit on FRC is 80 ft(can't mouthfill) and I seldom go past 110 ft full lung. If extreme depth is your thing, packing and all that goes with it may be necessary. There are some other high intensity forms of diving where FRC doesn't seem to work, at least for me. For the kind of diving I usually do, frc gives me substantially longer, more comfortable dives. I come up much fresher than full lung and, on the rare occasions where I am pushing it, much more clear headed, also more clear headed at depth. Recovery times are shorter, even considering the deceptive feeling you get recovering from an frc dive. All this comports exactly with frc theory. Having been doing frc extensively for over a year, I'm quite certain that it makes for safer diving. Nice extra is being able to dive longer and get less tired.

None if the above is to suggest that doing frc wrong can't be dangerous. Dive with 1/2 a lungful, swim down hard, keep swimming and don't give your reflex time to kick in, and the diver might end up dead. At the very least it won't be a very good dive. FRC is a technique that takes practice and control. It doesn't fit all situations.

Connor