head down fresnel challenges

[ahofbauer]

I think fcallagy may be right!!

If You keep toying around with it, two things can happen:

Maybe You find the trick, or maybe the constant
exercise strengthens Your muscles to a point where
it begins to work.

Buén aire, Compañeros!

[azapa]

Hi Fergus, Max, thanks for the answers. I will carry on playing around, its frustrating to be at this wall though. Fergus: there are great freedivers here, but they "just know" how to do it and can't explain. Most of them, the 40M + guys, *think* they are doing Vasala, "just blow against your pinched nose" they tell me. Or they say "you must be congested" ... I guess its such a subtle thing that I will just have to trip over it. I hope soon!

Any tips in the mean while most welcome.

[ahofbauer]

Hi azapa!

Besides the various techniques described for eq, real life holds a
much broader spectrum of procedures, sometimes depending on
such cryptic notions like "sinus-volume" or even "eustachian-tube-
cloggability". ;-)
The -so known- eq techniques allow for a lot of combinations
and "part slutions".
Every now and then new methods emerge, more often than not
created by someone who is unable to use the "normal" ones.

It´s a game of Try, try, try

If You can´t do it like the rest of us, find Your own way!

Buén Aire, Compañeros!

[Adrian]

It does take a lot of time, it took me a long time to learn the Frenzel. What really helped was learning to control the different parts individually as per Erics document until it became really familiar.

suerte compañero!

[Fondueset]

I read Eric's excellent Frenzel document - then realized I've been doing it since I was sixteen. My daughter also does Frenzel without ever being told about it. The way I got to is was practicing clearing my ears all winter when I was a kid and couldn't dive. I developed the ability to sense and easily open my eustachian tubes by duplicating the feeling at the begining of a yawn. Then I could 'pop' my ears against no resistance very easily. I never gave any thought to whether I was pushing from my diaphragm or using frenzel - but somehow I figured out frenzel without every having heard of it or had it described to me. I suggest working on getting the pre-yawn awareness in your eustachians then work on gently pressurizing them on dry land. Don't think about 'toungue' or anything like that. Just hold your breath, gently without filling your lungs, at the throat and try to equalize. (you are holding with your throat if you can do it without your mouth open) Eventually you'll get it. Work with the feeling instead of thinking in terms of separate parts doing this or that.

[Adrian]

Chris, that sounds more like BTV:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/equalis...alization.html

I'd love to be able to do it, (hands free equalization) but I think my eustachian tubes are very sticky/small whatever. I've spent time wagging my jaws, pre-yawning all sorts of wierd ways and the only thing was I got was strange looks in the street. (Clears throat here...) Still, this conversation might just get me going again!

[Fondueset]

You may be right - in any case it doesn't involve pushing from the lungs at all. It uses the root of the tongue. I do not normally need to pinch my nose or pause at all on the way down. I equalize more or less constantly the whole way. Trick is to not overdo it and lose air out the mask - it just takes a very slight bit to equalize - usually I can equalize the ear hands-free and leave the mask unequalized until it really needs it. I just finally got a D3 and I'm good barreling on down to 20 meters so far as fast as I want to swim.

-Okay -just read through the link in the link -I seem to be able to do it either way - that is using the tongue - or using some combination of throat etc. I NEVER equalize pushing from the lungs though - it feels creepy and dangerous to me. My eustachians klick open without any visible movement of my jaw or anything. As I kid I spent an obsessive amount of time messing with this - I can isloate them and open one at a time - Long winters in suburban Illinois and school wasn't all that interesting..

Anyway - I think isolating/feeling the eustachians is very helpful.

[azapa]

Chris: sounds like you have paid your dues and are reaping the rewards. Thanks for the advice. In an hour long drive to pick up my son from school I must have equalized down to about 300M's worth of ocean Enjoy the D3 and post some dives to allow me to nerdily compare descent rates etc.

[Fondueset]

LOL - I don't have the pc uplink for it
I've actually equalized hands free with no mask before - but my sinuses filled up with water - which is a bit risky infection-wise.

[azapa]

Blueeeggg, no mask....

Try this interface, I have not, and the design is not mine, but I have read good reports. Fleabay copies are about $30. Do get/build one, its the only thing that makes these better than the $50 Timex Helix Depth masters

[DeepThought]

I don't have your background, so I'm asking this just to make sure:
Do you equalize on the surface just before the duck dive?
Do you maintain a "neutral" head position while descending? (looking horizontally while you dive vertically = not looking at the bottom)
If you're wearing a hood, do you flood it before diving? (outer ear being filled with water)
How often do you equalize (depth wise)?

[azapa]

Hi Deepthought, thanks for the help:

Do you equalize on the surface just before the duck dive? YES, when I remember...
Do you maintain a "neutral" head position while descending? (looking horizontally while you dive vertically = not looking at the bottom) YES, to the point of looking at the surface ripples as I fin down.
If you're wearing a hood, do you flood it before diving? (outer ear being filled with water) YES
How often do you equalize (depth wise)? I try almost all the way down, but it gets progressively harder until all the compression either does back to my lungs (guuuuuuuuuhhhhh sound, leaky epiglottis) or through my clenched lips.

Some other data: I had my tonsils and adenoids removed as a kid. I have read the adenoids are close to/effect the Eustachian tube opening. Maybe there is some scar tissue there tightening things up?? I may have this checked soon by a nose/throat doctor.

I have been reading Umberto Pelizzari's books and he talks about how divers tense up as they reach their max depths, this is obviously a big part of the problem for me.
I am also now, 100% sure that I AM doing the freznel correctly, bar some details, all the classic tests, the huge pressure I can create etc, no chest movement, nostrils flare, I can even do it with water in my mouth. My biggest problem, THE problem in fact, is getting that pressure through the tubes rather than it going back down, or though my lips. That is my fail point, something is still not right.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but when I started diving, without knowing how to eq at all, I would have pain at 5M on, but would often go to 8m putting up with the pain. Thankfully, no damage was done. But I find that I am now quite pain tolerant. I can still easily get to say 5M with NO pain without eq one more eq and I'm at 9M. I know thats not good, and they should be more frequent, but often spearfishing (when I forget my eq problem) thats what I do. I am very sensitized to NOT permitting ear pain now, and never feel it. (So, I AM advancing in some way...

I am sure with all the tips I'm getting here, and the Umberto Pelizzari book, (VERY GOOD BTW) i'll crack it soon.

Thanks!! Safe dives...

[Fondueset]

Thanks for the D3 interface recipe!

[DeepThought]

Have you tried valsalva? how is that working for you?

The fact that the deeper you go the more difficult it is for you to equalize means that you are probably gathering some kind of euqalization debt = not putting enough air in your ears to get to ambient pressure in each equalization. Have you tried equalizing 3 times per meter for example to see if it has the same effect?

[azapa]

big progress. I have done some easy dives past my old threshold (problems started about 13M) to 20M without any ear pain at all. My Frenzel still sucks, but my improvement has been made by:
- not over thinking about it, I took my float out, and held the line end in one hand as I dived, a kind of surrogate spreargun!
- clearing the tubes well before trying deeper dives, flooding my mask/ nostrils and letting them drain over a 10 min period.

I feel that I could easily hit 25 to 30M now with a little more work, a deeper bottom, and a good buddy.. (the later is my biggest problem).

I am still NOT doing Frenzel correctly though, and must work on that.. thanks for all the ideas..