head down fresnel challenges

[azapa]

I would like a little help getting past a hump I have met on the learning curve:

I have learned Fresnel, and can do it easily to about 12M, but find head down very hard past that point. To get to 25M without pain, for example, I must invert (head up) at least twice after 10M, which is very tiring and air using, not to mention concentration (or relaxation) busting.

I am diving in cold water, with clear sinuses, and can easily do dry Fresnel. but in the water at depth, things seem so much harder. Any tips?

I should mention that spearfishing, with mind on other things, this seems easier. When I go out without the spear, looking for depth and challenges, I find the problem exaggerated.

Thanks.

[Adrian]

Hola azapa,
Are you sure you are doing the Frenzel correctly? I had this very same problem with the Valsalva, my dives had more curves than a mountain road and by the time I reached 13 meters I was a minute into the dive...
With the Frenzel that all disappeared, just blowing gently I can equalize easily until my failure depth. (Where the pressure doesn't let you use your lungs any more.)

[fcallagy]

Hi Azapa,
As Adrian said check to make sure its frenzel, your chest should not move when you equalise.
I kinda of had a similar problem a little deeper that was caused i think by the speed of my descent so maybe try to do some free immersion to a greater depth using no fins and because pulling yourself down and up the rope is a lot slower it just might work. I found if I did this it was a lot easier to equalise and had to then try and transfer that speed over when using fins. I should add that I was skeptical while trying this as I thought I was equalising down all the way at the appropriate times but turns out i wasn't and had to then try to do a strong equalisation at one depth instead of 2 easier ones on the way to that depth. Try it and see and at least then you can know if its that or rule it out. Let us know how you get on.

[azapa]

thanks for the input guys. I *think* my freznel is OK because of the classic tests mentioned on DB: no chest or stomach movement, Addams apple bobs up and down, and I can generate a lot of pressure. Now, maybe when I get in the water I am subconsciously reverting to Vasala? To be honest, before I attempted Freznel, con Vasala, I could hardly get past 12M or so without pain. Now at least, inverting, I am hitting 20 to 25M, it's just too tiring.

I should add I have never tried a line, so my descents are probably too quick. I do equalize before I have pain though. One other bad (?) thing I have noticed myself doing is to descend constantly holding my nose. Maybe I am too self conscious about the whole thing. When I'm spearing, in 10M for example, I only equalize three times to get there: about 3M, 6, and on the bottom (flat at that point, so is easy). I have no pain at all like this, and suspect that in between I am equalizing a little without pinching.

Two dumb questions:
1. I find I have to keep my snorkel in my mouth on the way down in order to equalize. If it take it out on the surface, on trying to equalize on the way down I can't keep my lips tightly closed enough without having the snorkel mouth piece to bare down on. That is, on equalizing air comes though my clenched lips... When do you remove snorkel before going down, or on the way up as I do?
2. On equalizing, I often have a "guuuuuuuhhhhhhhh" sound that I seem to produce in the back of my throat, it is quite loud. Does this happen to you?

Thanks for the help! Ocean permitting, this weekend I will be "testing"

[fcallagy]

Hi Azapa,
Snorkel should really be out once you dive I often forget this but always try to remember it as it should not be in on resurfacing.There should not be much pressure on your lips sounds like something is wrong if you are having this problem. The guuhhh sound does,t happen to me but may well happen if the soft palate is not in the correct position which may account for the pressure on the lips also.

[Fondueset]

That sounds a bit odd. I'm no expert but can do frenzel or valsalva with my mouth open and full of water. The only reason to seal it is if you are using mouthfill to store air for deep dives. At there very least it sounds like there is a lot of unnecessary tension in your Frenzel.

[azapa]

Guys, thanks, you have a point here re pressure in mouth: I shouldn't have any if I'm doing a good Freznel, I guess.

I now, with your thoughts, am thinking that whilst spearfishing do the freznel correctly, it certainly feels natural and effortless, but when I don't have the speargun, and targets etc, I over concentrate on the act of going for depth, and this turns my compensation to ruins, ie, I probably start doing subconscious Vasala.

I can do Freznel with mouth open or full of water too (crackling ears now in office, co-workers already know I'm weird). I must focus to get the same feeling in the water..... buaaaaaaaaaa. I will report Wednesday (long sandwich weekend coming up here) Ocean permitting.

More tips welcome in the interim.

[ahofbauer]

Sounds like You´re using a strange kind of hybrid procedure for equalizing.

The Valsalva method means that You´re forcing air against a closed mouth in order to send air through the eustachian tubes to the inner ear. The pumping effect is accomplished with the chest and diaphragm muscles. Using this method some air may escape through your lips and it takes a real effort to do so. You would be wasting O2 just to equalize.

The Frenzel method means that You use the back of your thongue as a piston to elevate the air pressure and supply air to your inner ear. No rise of pressure should occur in the lip area of the mouth. The system only works if the nostrils are securely shut (by a noseclamp). IMHO the grunting noise is a sure sign of a failure in the procedure.

Use two fingers to clamp your nose shut and begin pumping air with the back of your thongue. You should feel the air being pumped to the nose. It´s not much, just a "spoonfull" every time, but at high pressure. Lungs and Chest don´t do a thing.
You can try this exercise werever You want (at office, for examle) but don´t try to equalize. You´re just trying to get your nose inflating and deflating slightly (pulsating) with every movement of the piston, even if the mouth is open.

It´s very easy, once you find out how to do it.

It´s kind of a continuos process when You´re diving, forget
about eq-stops every few meters.

Good Luck

[azapa]

Thanks again for the replies. I tried to ask the question last night at the pool training I do, but no one had a clue, they are all 40M+ spearos, but try to ask them to explain how they do it.. they just do it... I am off to the beach this weekend and will try to do the same dry Freznel, that according to Max's definition I am doing perfectly, but in the water... I hope to be laughing about the naivety of such posts of mine in a few months...
Cheers!

[Sean Smith]

Hi Azapa - Expanding on what ahofbauer said... One other thing you might try: Instead of equalizing every 3m or so, try equalizing constantly. If you're waiting at all - even without pain - that's only generating more pressure on your eardrums that you will need to overcome once you do equalize. Try maintaining positive pressure all the way.

[glennv]

p.s.
You can still do a very good frentzel with pressure on your cheecks and lips.
Do not confuse using your tongue with doing a correct frentzel.
Like Eric Fattah described (and what i personnaly find easier to start with) is use your cheaks to pump the air from your mount to your ears (so not from the lung of course).
Using the tongue you can create higher pressures because of the smaller volume to compress, but it is both the frentzel. (eg neutral eppiglotus and closed throat).
I found out after long experimenting on what the hell i did wrong, that to forget about the tongue (for the most part of the dive at least) and just use small contractions (or a very small constant pressure) of the cheaks on a filled mounth , suddenly everything fell into place. Probably because when you focus on tensing your cheecks , you can relax the back of your throat and it is easier to control/relax the eppiglottus. On the more difficult last part of the dive I will then focus on the tongue to generate some extra pressure on the last bit of air. If I start from the beginning with the tongue I loose it halfway (start blowing air against a blocked eppiglotus, or air escapes back in my lung).
Will get easier by time for sure.
I (as do lots of freedivers) still train almost every day to learn how to control the epiglotttus better and better.

[ahofbauer]

Another point that can cause You some trouble is to eq while Your neck is in a forced position, e.g. looking down while You´re diving down.
Your neck should be in the same relaxed position as if You were walking.

So take an Underwater Walk

Buén Aire, Compañeros!

[DeepThought]

One more thing you can try:
Equalizing even more frequently (once or twice per meter), it might be easier to make this work and from there you can start reducing frequency.

As for chicks vs. tonque, try see what is working, but I think that ultimately the tonque maneuver does more than just push air for some people. It might also move a little the tensor/levator palatini muscles that go around the opening of your e-tubes, thuss giving even less resistance for equalization.

Good luck. (my frenzel ain't something to be proud of either. )

[azapa]

Despite all your help and ideas I still did lousy dives at the weekend. I am not doing Freznel properly, as many of you mentioned. The attached, new toy, shows the problem kicking in. It was worse than usual and I had too much pain to go deeper than 13M. You can see the bumps after 12M when I try to level out and clear. On the last leveling at 13M I cleared, but was too tired to go further. I have hit 20M before, on a good day, but will never get further until I sought out this issue.

The guuuuuuuuhhhhhhh noise I think is my epiglottis allowing air back down into my lungs, therefor not sending it to my ears. I have always had "tight" ears, but am not prepared to let the problem defeat me. I have read Eric's document, and Jome's, but: any tips how to make the epiglottis close better?

At my desk now, a mild pressure freznel does not open the epiglotiss (the guuuuuuggghhhhh noise) but pumping the tounge/throat harder does. This is where I go wrong in the water.

Thanks again!

[fcallagy]

hi azapa,
looking at the dive profile i don't think descent speed is the issue anyway but i may be wrong. getting the frenzel to me anyway is abit like learning to whistle you try it and try it and then one day bang you have it but still don't really know what you have done differently. It may not be very good advice but if you keep playing around with it you should get it. Are there any other freedivers around you ?