Omer XXV Speargun + Other Fast tracking guns?

[Pastor]

Originally Posted by spaghetti

It's more annoying to argue with wife or work boss for taking a day off, travel to the sea, get dressed, get wet, and then finally realize that your only gun is too long/too short for the situation...

I have just one word: Mid Handle
two words then

[spaghetti]

Originally Posted by Pastor

I have just one word: Mid Handle
two words then

You see Pastor I have no prejudice against mid handel guns since the only one I've ever tried was a very old mid handle spring gun made in the late 50's which belonged to my grandpa.
But here's the point: I hunt in Europe, you hunt in Europe, Mr. X hunts in Europe. And in Europe there is not even a single manufacturer of spearguns who makes Mid Handle guns. I think there must be a reason.
There must be a reason if all the people who professionally design and manifacture guns intended to hunt european fish in european waters they ALL AGREE on the fact that rear handle are preferable, in a way that none of them even takes the "risk" to try to launch a mid handle in their catalogues.
Ok now someone will tell me the some unknown brand Vodkasub in Ukraine or Fetasub in Greece or Cambronne Sub in Normandy actually makes Mid Handles. And someone will tell that billions of flies eat excrementes but this does not mean that excrements are good (blahh!).
But I think my point is clear: there must be a reason, a good reason, if europeans don't make mid handles.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by spaghetti

Mr.X I think you must focus on what you really need. For what I read, I lean to think that you need a 75/77, but lets' talk about it.
Now what are YOU looking for?
1) Is it a second gun to alternate with your primary 90cm for low viz days?
2) OR is it a bit shorter MAIN gun since your 90 has shown to be too long most of the times?
In any case consider that the overall length of an 82/85 gun (considering also the shaft length) is just 5 centimeters shorter than a 90, so if you switch to an 82/85 you won't gain much, just 5 centimeters, for the visibility issue, while the shooting power and range will be inferior.
If I were in you fins I'd get a 75/77 and bring on always two guns, one clipped to your float, to alternate them according to visibility, terrain and tasks. Me I always bring on 3 (a 106, a 77 and a 60), which is probably not necessary in England (no pelagics and no holed-in fish). But anyway, you have that damn visibility issue, don't you? Believe me, bringing two guns, once you get used to it, is not annoying as you could think.
It's more annoying to argue with wife or work boss for taking a day off, travel to the sea, get dressed, get wet, and then finally realize that your only gun is too long/too short for the situation...

Excellent posts. It sounds like you might be onto something. I am currently awaiting a new trigger mech. for my main gun - so I probably have mixed thoughts & feelings about this. However, as the stores are all out of stock of the XXV, I have some time to sort out my thoughts.

Re. carrying the second gun. I guess I could carry it on the float. Although, several of the locations I regularly visit involve significant walk-ins. I feel like I already carry about as much as I can manage (admittedly, sometimes that includes angling tackle) & I just added some more weight to my belt. I am beginning to come around to your way of thinking though.

Re. wife/boss. Yes, there are quite a lot of things that can ruin a good days spearing, despite all the plans & effort involved.

[BTW anybody see Ray Mears on TV this afternoon, with the guy who survived adrift in a life raft in the Altantic by feeding himself using a speargun? One fish even holed the raft with his spear.]

[Pastor]

I have a theory that many years ago when the likes of Nemrod and Cressi did make mid handle guns it wasn't much of a competition in the waters of the med when rear handles became more popular. The rear handle is better suited to the style of fishing there without a doubt. So with all the manufactures being Mediterranean based there wasn't much of a choice here in the UK where the style of fishing is different and the need for rear handles is a little less clear cut. Now there is no choice and for many years us Brits have been using the only style of gun available to us. I would put money on a fair proportion of UK spearos preferring a modern mid handled gun over their current gun given the chance to try one. So far everyone who has used my guns have said that they want one.

[Old Man Dave]

Mr X, just to clear up the length thing on my Omer Gold XXV 90. It uses a shorter spear than a "standard" 90cm gun. This makes the OmerGold XXV 90 only 5cm longer than a "standard" 75cm gun.

Dave

[foxfish]

Originally Posted by Pastor

With some of your mods you could knock up a mid/rear handle hybrid

Well I did one night, a few months ago, sit down and draw up some sketches of an adjustable handle gun. I could see a way of moving the handle from mid to rear but I will have to build a prototype first.
I think there are good & bad points about both styles of gun but I like to get the spear tip as close as possible to the fish & on this basis a rear handle gun suits me. However I can see that the handling & balance of a mid handle could be a big +?

[miles]

Hiya

Mr.X, your biggest challenge is going to be switching from a rear handle to a mid-handle. Both guns shoot very differently and it will be difficult to get accustomed to switching between the two. If your primary gun is rear handled, best to get your secondary, dirty water gun to be rear handled too.

Another factor influencing your purchase is the brand you currently use. Sometimes various manufacturer's gun will shoot differently to one another. Thats why you often hear of spearo's using a railgun for the first time and complaining that the gun is in-accurate!! If possible, try and stick to the same brand of gun you currently have. This way, you are always comfortable with the grip, safety(if you use it!!) and the way it shoots.

Mid-handles are AWESOME!! I can't understand why so very few euro spearo's use them!! Understandably, for cave/crevice hunting a small rear handle works well, but for any other type of spearing, a mid-handle is superb!!

Regards
miles

[miles]

I think there are good & bad points about both styles of gun but I like to get the spear tip as close as possible to the fish & on this basis a rear handle gun suits me.

Ever had those days when the fish simply wouldn't allow you close enough for you to place a shot?? Fish seem to instinctively know how far away from you they need to stay!! With a mid-handle, because you have a much greater range, you often get in long shots that you would not have taken with your rear handle!! That and the manouverability of the mid-handle is its greatest assets.

[spaghetti]

Miles you make interesting points as usual and when you speak I listen with the greatest respect.
But this question springs out of me spontaneously: then why do you use mostly rear handle guns? Never read about you shooting into crevices, but yet you mentioned Apache, Monoscocca, Rabi's and Pelaj as your guns, all rear handle...

[Marwan]

to comment on one of the key points mentioned by miles, i tried mid handles with a riffe, i agree with all the maneuverability stuff, but i found it different as stated above, i couldnt load with the same technique etc.. had to be hip loaded instead of chest loaded, the balance on my hand wasnt the same, you have to use 2 hands to shoot, one on the trigger and one on the butt to keep it from smashing your face...all these differences made me uncomfortable, particularly that MY hunting conditions does not require mid handle guns in the base case, even when i went for the wong, i got the rear handle version for those reasons...now where miles hunts, he needs fast tracking and power for those big tuna, the mid handle will be a clearly better option if thats what you regularly hunt..

[Pastor]

Be fair you bought the Wong because of the know bad handling problems of that particular Riffe gun. They became obsolete in Europe for just the same reasons, they were crap! With a well designed "smallish" duty gun (<50") they will be little or next to no recoil, that's certainly the case with the ones I own, even the double banded Wong is a one handed shot. A well designed mid handled gun will be as accurate as any well designed rear handled gun but with added versatility in poor or changeable conditions.

[miles]

Hiya

Pretty simple explanations really!! First off, Riffe and Wong's are RIDICULOUSLY expensive here!! To put it into perspective, a single Wong Hybrid would cost the same price as 8 Rabitech or Rob Allan guns!!

We were completely oblivious to mid-handled guns, due to their price and unavailabilty here. Tommy then started producing mid-handled guns, as he'd use them before and could see the benefits it offered for our YF tuna. The supreme manouverabilty was its biggest attribute. He produced a 63", then a 57" and then a 67". Based of the success of these guns, he started producing a slightly thinner 57" which threw a 7mm spear and was powered by 2x16mm's. These we tested on our reef fish as well as our inshore pelagics. We primarily hunt yellowtail, which often need a gun to be able to track fast. The 'small' 57" worked brilliantly!! I battled a bit with the aiming, but soon got the knack of it. The manouverabily was AWESOME!!

On reef fish, the range was phenominal. With the 2 banded 57" mid-handle, you've basically got a 90cm gun protruding in from of you, yet has the range and power of a 130cm gun!! No more fish that stays JUST out of range!!

I've even taken YF tuna with my 57". This is pretty much the PERFECT gun for our type of spearing. You can use it on reef fish, inshore Pelagics as well as larger off-shore pelagics. The best part, is the PRICE!! Tommy has just started producing them for sale and they cost about the same as a carbon railgun!! Thats a 57" mid-handle wooden gun, fully rigged, with 2x16mm's and 2 spears, one a fixed barb and the other a slip-tip for less than what a carbon Omer sells for here!!

Marwan, i chest load all of my guns. The bands are really soft, as i dislike short, impossible to load bands!! When i started out, i also needed to shoot my mid-handle 63" and 67" guns with both hands, but now am able to shoot my 67" with 4x16mm's with one hand. Just make sure your elbow is locked and try not to put your face very close to the gun's butt!! Our mid-handled tuna guns have very little recoil. Even my wife has shot my 67" gun with-out even mentioning recoil!! Putting 5x16mm's bands on it, THEN you start getting some recoil!!

[spaghetti]

kudos, Miles!

[strangelove]

One issue I found a couple years ago when mixing euro guns with my mid handle guns (Alexander trigger), the trigger on the mid handles were so much less sensitive then the ones on the euro gun that cause me to miss a couple fish.

But this was the biggest issue for me, but I was using yokoojis , they have handle not as in the middle as the other guns as you can see in the picture.

Attachment 18253

[Marwan]

Originally Posted by Pastor

Be fair you bought the Wong because of the know bad handling problems of that particular Riffe gun. They became obsolete in Europe for just the same reasons, they were crap! With a well designed "smallish" duty gun (<50") they will be little or next to no recoil, that's certainly the case with the ones I own, even the double banded Wong is a one handed shot. A well designed mid handled gun will be as accurate as any well designed rear handled gun but with added versatility in poor or changeable conditions.

I think you misunderstood me, I bought the wong for all the good reasons, all im saying is, when i bought it i made sure it was rear handled to cater to my preferences..actually if i recall correctly, handle placement preference was one of the first things Daryl asked me about..The "rear handle plus" that DAryl Makes are not the traditional euro rear handles, they are sort of in the middle between a rear handle and a mid handle