BOs in competitions resulting in a ban?

[efattah]

If you want to know why competitions are becoming less popular, all you have to do is ask a few people who used to be frequent & motivated competitors, and who have now stopped competing (or compete much less).

Most people have had a bad experience of some sort, related to competitions.

These often include:
1. Extreme political tensions & power struggles amidst a national team, or amidst people trying to get on the team
2. Realization that freediving is about enjoyment of the sea, or the apnea state, and realization that the high stress environment generated by today's 'style' of competition isn't fun at all, and has little to do with the true spirit of freediving
3. The experience of training for months, spending tons of hard earned money, to go to a competition, where the diver has only ONE chance to do a dive or breath-hold, and to either experience an organizational difficulty which prevents the diver from reaching full performance, or to experience a questionable judgement via the jury, or the diver gets sick, sinus block, ear squeeze, or some other one-shot thing which prevented just that one dive. The diver then feels worthless, having invested huge amounts of time and money, to be told by the judges and the results list that in actual fact they suck as a diver (which isn't necessarily true).


The answer or solution is quite clear, and is exemplified by the upcoming Ibiza Grand Prix competition. In the Ibiza competition, nationality has no function, and anyone can enter, unconstrained by any national entity. This automatically removes all politics and power struggles. Second, it is not based on maximum depth, but instead hitting a target depth. This removes the need for extreme training and stress of competition day. Third, the DRUMS system removes the narrow window for the diver to start the dive, instead allowing a large comfortable window to begin, removing more stress. Fourth, it allows announcing your target just moments before, based on HOW YOU FEEL, which is what freediving is about.

I am an example of someone who used to compete a lot, but now seldom compete. The Ibiza competition is highly tempting though, since I know there will be no politics, and little stress, and even if I don't have time for hard training I'm pretty sure I can hit a depth while blind.

[fcallagy]

The grand prix should be interesting but i think its down to us as a community as to where we go or will there be two branches ( i didnt say a split ) as its more likely that depth records etc will be broken with pressure on the competitor to perform thats what competing is surely raising the bar etc. Ibiza will be an interesting experiment and may prove to be a lot more enjoyable to participate in but will it increase depths ? surely if it does we are back to a stressed or pressurised athlethe. When do we say thats deep enough or do we ever? Freediving is personal for me as i dont expect to win wc or set records a bit like a triathlon i know i will not be coming 1st 2nd or 3rd so i only try to best my last time and thats the way for most people i think. The "race" is with yourself and exploring your limits. how many people of all the competitors enter comps with a real notion of having a shot at the title ? 20-30% i would guess but i could be wrong the rest i think are competing for themselves. maybe a team comp is different as you will have different abilities on the team. Or i could be completely wrong on it all.

[osusim]

I guess better ban the person for life and cancel all records in the past. We've got too many recods. And in a case of organizer fault, ban the organizer for life also.
jome, did you sleep well?

[cebaztian]

Originally Posted by osusim

I guess better ban the person for life and cancel all records in the past. We've got too many recods. And in a case of organizer fault, ban the organizer for life also.

Another idea - lets get rid of the safetydivers. That would save money and time and the BO athletes will learn a lesson the hard way, having to take care of themselves or wait for the Anti ballast to be deployed.

Seriously - I wouldnt mind a rule that stops a BOathlete from further compeeting that day and in case of a below surface BO also ba from compeeting the next day. Let the person rest and reflect upon their "sins".

And regarding respecting the athletes feeling. I have tried to offer athletes to make last minute changes (less depth) in http://www.fridykning.se/nordicdeep. According to Aida rules there has to be a point reduction if the official AP is not met, but I as an orginazer does not want an athlete doing an "on the edge dive" just because conditions has changed since the Ap was given some 12-16 hours earlier.

And also I believe that most ideas in the Ibiza Grand Prix has a future. And I dont think we will see "a split". Aida will folllow the main body of freedivers whereever they go. It is good that organizers "challenge" the aida rules now and then to explore alternatives - the rules are far from finished.

http://www.fridykning.se/freediving/...grandprix.html

Sebastian

[naiad]

I think blackouts should be discouraged (as they are now, by giving the performance 0 points), but not further punished. IMO, a blackout is a mistake, not a crime.

Lucia

[jome]

Originally Posted by osusim

I guess better ban the person for life and cancel all records in the past. We've got too many recods. And in a case of organizer fault, ban the organizer for life also.
jome, did you sleep well?

Well...No, I think that would be too harsh. But everyone is entitled to their opinnion and I value your suggestion. That's why I start these debates, to get discussion and ideas flying. There is always room for improvement.

I do sleep very well at least on those days I actually have the time, thank you

[Kiwi GEE]

Generally a good idea, I'm more for a ban in allowing them not too compete for the rest of the day, due body recovery reasons etc.

As Naiad says, 0 points for your efforts should be a good discoragement,
or generally giving the impression it's not a good idea.
As in all my years of freediving comps, it's been effective enough I believe.
Even more so if your part of a team, as your not going to be a popular...
But this sport is out about finding your limits, sometimes that line gets crossed in an effort to explore that, but I'm always 100% confident knowning (if) it happens, safety is always at hand under the rules.

With various reasons for blackouts, adding this to the rules will be
a complicated task involving a (edit) debate covering every scenario & ban ammount.

[wolleneugebauer]

Sorry, but this proposal is totally unnecessary. We don't need a repeated new-rules-discussion. We are no bureaucrats. The sport is called "FREE"-Diving!

In the current situation the organizer can ban any competitor if he announces with too much risk (remember cyprus 2004).
If the competitor has a bad blackout, the organizer can ask the doctor and can ban the athlet for the next round (so I was banned after my BO on the first day at the tripledepth 2005 for the next day - this was hard for me, but I had to accept this.)

greetings, wolle

[naiad]

I agree. That's what I like about freediving - that I can do whatever I want! (but I think I am staying reasonably safe!)

[samdive]

weird - we were just talking about this last night and now i see this thread.

This happens in many sports - Rugby and Football in the UK both have bans for getting knocked up - it gets longer the 1st, 2nd times you get knocked out and then on the 3rd time, you are banned for the rest of the season

It's not a bad suggestion - except there are not really enough competitions to make it really much of a problem for most people. Maybe one for the future

[trux]

Originally Posted by wolleneugebauer

Sorry, but this proposal is totally unnecessary. We don't need a repeated new-rules-discussion. We are no bureaucrats. The sport is called "FREE"-Diving!

Sorry, Wolle, but this is a complete demagogy. If you want it "FREE", why not allowing LMC and BO? Why having any surface protocol at all? Is it really the direction you want to see it going?

I totally agree with Jome, that today many freedivers consider blackouts and sambas for something normal and do not bother blacking out at almost every competition. And I agree that there is definitely something to do about it. Unfortunately as I mentioned at the top, and as Samdive notes in the previous post too, the ban wouldn't have the desired effect, because most people simply do not compete often enough. And I admit that making the ban months long wouldn't be justified.

[jome]

Well I for one don't like the term freediving anyway. I think apnea or apnea diving are much more descripitive...

People always get hung up with the different definitons of "free". Like it's not really freediving if you own property and don't have dreadlocks or something.

To me it is just diving without breathing equipment without any elaborate philosophical constructions. There's diving with breathing apparatus, and then there is apneadiving. Both are wonderful things that enable partly the same and partly different experiences.

Now of course there is the "making love to mother earth" side of it I also enjoy, but I don't see how a competitive sport could be totally without rules?

Anyway, I guess the world is not ready yet for this But at least in every competition I organize a BO will result in shutting out of the rest of the comp...

[naiad]

Originally Posted by trux

I totally agree with Jome, that today many freedivers consider blackouts and sambas for something normal and do not bother blacking out at almost every competition.

I also agree with Jome that if this is happening, it is wrong. If someone obviously doesn't care about blacking out, that is the wrong attitude, and they should not be competing. I have met some freedivers (thankfully very few) who have a 'couldn't care less' attitude to their own safety, and sometimes that of others. IMO, they should be banned from training as well as competing.

If I entered a competition and accidentally had a blackout or LMC because of factors I could not have predicted, and I was banned from competing for weeks or months as a result, I would certainly not compete ever again, at least not with the same organisation that banned me. I would see this as a waste of money and a denial of personal freedom.

I think a good analogy is falling off a bike. If I went mountain biking on rough ground every day, and occasionally I fell off the bike and got a few minor injuries, I think this is an acceptable risk, and I would be very unhappy to be banned because of this. If I had accidents on most days, it would be time to think of changing my style or attitude, or taking up another sport!

Lucia

[wes]

I have never completed and I think the idea of banning someone because of a blackout is totally baked (or half baked if that works).

No one wants to black out and if they do its too bad for them. The idea of a competition is its a place where you can push yourself in a very safe and controlled environment. Thats the idea with many competitions like downhill ski racing. People sometimes die from falling in downhill ski races and very frequently hurt themselves very badly, do we ban them because they fell, no.
Saying I am banning you because of something you did means to me they have done something wrong. I don't think blacking out in a competiton is wrong.

Cheers Wes

[jome]

Well, if the skier had for example broken his leg on the last spill, but would still insist on going down again, hell yeah I would ban him...

I guess not everyone sees BO the same way, but to me it means that persons ability to dive physiologically is severly impaired for at least the remainder of the day, in fact several days. If someone dives again right after suffering a BO, the risks are magnified. He is no longer "just a competitor" from the organizer point of view, but a risk and a liability.

I guess 2 weeks is a little much, and more of a punishment than about safety. But I'd say at least 24h competition ban for BO is more than reasonable...

Well, the time may not me right for this discussion now, but I would be very surprised if in 2-3 years something like this is not in the rules...