BOs in competitions resulting in a ban?

[jome]

Hi,

I don't remember where I saw this idea, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. So what do you think?

For safetyreasons, I think it would make sense to enforce a temporary ban for a freediver for blacking out in a competition.

For example:
-Surface BO in pool -> Banned from competing in AIDA comps for 2 weeks
-Surface BO in open water -> Same
-BO below surface in open water comp -> Banned for example 1 month

The severity of the ban remains debatable, but what does everyone think of the general idea?

There should, of course, be extra clauses like:
-if bo is caused by organizer fault (rope too long etc), ban is not enforced
-Where to draw a line between a BO and a really bad samba? (for example, not able to even try to make SP during 15 sec window, but is lifeless or needs rescuing)

[turtle]

Not averse to the idea, but what are the safety reasons?
Seems more like a penalty than a safety measure in some respects from first impressions.
f

[jome]

Well there are two things I consider:

1. Someone who has suffered a blackout is more suspectible to suffer it again if he dives in the near future, and sometimes people will dive still in the same competition! IMO the minimum should be that a BO results in the athlete being banned from the rest of the starts of the same event
2. It would perhaps make divers think twice about trying/announcing depths or performnaces they are not ready for. For example doing a BO in the first day of the WC team would be disastrous for the whole team - so even the more kamikaze type divers would probably thing twice.

Then again, it might change nothing.

Anyway, I do think that BOs are nowadays in many comps treated a little too lightly...You know, "oh, it was just a bo...nothing serious. I thought someone had an accident". It is serious! Not only as a health thing, but if the organizer thinks selfisly, it is very bad publicity, so it would also serve the organizers purposes to show that "this is not accepted" and enforce some kind of punishment.

[fcallagy]

Jome not having done a comp yet this may not be a valued opinion. I had supposed that a BO already was a ban for the comp or at least that day. I think two weeks or longer some what draconian as it does seem more of a punishment rather than a safety precaution. From a competitors point of view to travel a long distance to a wc and be banned after the first event would be an almighty kick in the teeth. I suppose it depends where Aida ( we ) want freediving comps to go. Pushing boundries is all very well and maybe BOs are treated too lightly in our community it will always depend on the diver and their condition at that time should they be punished because they " went for it" knew they could achieve that depth but BO because of lack of hydration not being used to heat or due to onset of stomach bug etc should they then be punished to such a degree.

[OceanMan]

In France, we have bot AIDA and CMAS competitions.
In CMAS competitions, if you have a BO or samba in a competition, you are disqualified for the entire competition.
And if you have one BO in one competition of the apnea cup or if you have been disqualified twice because of sambas (there are 5 competitions in the apnea cup), you are disqualified for the french CMAS championship.

I have not thought this through yet. So I can't tell what I think about it. If it's fair or not.

[jome]

Yeah, 2 weeks is a lot. I think there definately should be different sanctions depending on the severity.

IE if someone has a deep BO in cw, 2 weeks is not at all over the top, just from a health point of view.

Then again, a "small" bo in static or dynamic is usually less severe. So maybe just DQ:ing that particular day or something would do.

Sometimes there are so few competitors for example, or the level is so low, that it is possible that a diver with a BO can still be in the medals. Personally, I think this does not send the right message to anyone involved...So I think a BO in the results of a competition should nullify the total points count for the person for that day. So if for example the comp was dyn+sta, and the person had a BO in the latter, total points would be zero, but they would still get to keep their rank in DYN.

Sound too harsh?

[fcallagy]

It will depend if as a community we really want to try to eliminate bo as much as possible or if we are prepared to accept them as part of the sport. I feel its still seen as merit to some extent if you have BO and that you have not been pushing yourself hard enough if you have not had a bo yet. How many of the top freedivers have never BO in their career ? Also can a local competition decide that for its ranking it can give nil points or DQ from the comp if a BO occurs or does it have to use AIDA regulations all the time ?

[trux]

DQ for the given competition would be OK from my point of view. I am not sure about the disqualifying for longer after it - as a punitive factor it may miss its purpose, because I do not think that there are too many freedivers competing each week or two. And making it considerably longer would ruin the entire season which may be too harsh, and might have counterproductive result - increased pre-start stress and possibly even higher number of sambas and BO's. The stress is definitely a factor at BO's - we have in our club several freedivers who had LMC or BO during competitions doing just ~75% of their PB, although it never happens to them during the training.

From the health point, it won't have any impact. If the freediver cannot compete, he will almost certainly train immediately anyway. I think we can conclude that the effect would be purely punitive.

Besides it, I am afraid such rule might be abused for strategic manipulations, and could lead to many complaints, similarly as it was the case with LMC. It is often very difficult to distinguish between strong samba and BO. And why should be BO punished, and strong samba not? And when punishing strong samba, why not also mild samba? Telling what level of LMC or BO you have may be quite difficult and extremely subjective.

Another problem are LMC's/BO's caused by the organizer - for example stress added by the organizer due to last minute schedule change, too long rope, unsuitable tags (like it was the case in Egypt), etc. What to do then? As we saw in Egypt, allowing to repeat the attempt is not the best solution - AFAIK, at least one of those who repeated the attempt, blacked out again, although he was well in his secure margin. But DQ is too harsh, especially if it is a team competition - maybe giving some points in such case, but not allowing to compete for the rest of the event would be better and more secure.

Well, I agree that something should be done - BO's and sambas are far too common, but think that it will take a while before some acceptable and maximally objective system is in place.

[jome]

What I'm after is not an experienced diver having a BO once, or even twice in their career.

But the guys who have more BOs than white cards...

I don't think in any sport the "not trying hard enough" is a very good indication of wheather or not the performance was all it could be. It's not a problem for pro athletes, they are able to push as hard as need be. More of a problem may be trying too hard in relation to your reserves and current level. It needs to be more objective than that. In a good performance, the athlete knows in millisecond accuracy just when to save strength and when to go all out.

A BO performance wise, in my opinnion, is the same as a marathon runner crapping out 10km before the finish line - which is not acceptable for a pro, but rather amateurish. It's not considered a merit to not be able to judge your own strength so well as not to finish your performance...

Anywho, rambling, rambling...

[turtle]

I think it would be easier to have a proper discussion about what should/shouldn't be, were the focus more on health and were the issues surrounding repercussions/lasting effects of BOs and sambas better known. Ultimately, the punitive side comes down to an issue of health too - or is it aesthetics? Therefore i think we could do with directing to a thread regarding this, or if none exists yet, some input from the big guns on DB (Frank, Ben, Eric, Seb etc.)

When I have seen people who have had serious BOs at a competition, that is to say at extreme depth, neither of them were particularly in the mood to dive again immediately after. Both of them in fact complained of muscle pains during the following night (dehydration cramping, or something else?)

Good thread Jome, you always seem to be starting good debates going!

fred

[fcallagy]

Just to switch it around a little what about rewarding those more than come up toatally clean like a bonus of some extra points in the rankings if you have never had a bo, it would have to be handicapped in such a way so as to make it fair. Encourageing instead of penalising.

[BennyB]

This is a very interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up Simo.

My opinion is that I would disagree with a periodic ban from competition for blackouts (or LMC either minor or major). I could almost entertain the notion that a BO in a comp means you're out for the day, however it's a big expensive world out there and i'll be damned if I spend hundreds of pounds on turning up to a competition to be ruled out straight away. And it's pretty good for me being based in London as I can get to most places relatively inexpensively. For my fellow countrymen back home, a jaunt over to the other side of the world for a competition could cost up to a month's salary and if they were to BO in comp and be banned from the comp then that would be the last you would probably ever see of them.

BUT

That said, i'm a bit old-school in my thinking, in that I believe that the onus is on the competitor to get the best result from a competition, and in comp this translates to getting points. It's in the competitor's best interests to ensure they get the most points they can. A 52m dive is worth zero points if you BO. No points, no international ranking. If you want to see what your limits are, that's what (responsible) training is for. I can't understand how people can push themselves to the point of BO in comp, to my mind it just doesn't make sense when they do it time after time. Sure enough, shit happens and people can accidently push too far or have external circumstances out of their control, or may just be inexperienced. That happens, and so be it. But if people continually BO in comp they really have to ask themselves why are they there in the first place.

I've never blacked out in comp (or in training for that matter), it's all part of my comp strategy to maximise my points. Know the rules, don't DQ yourself.

I can see how serial offenders need to be pulled in a bit, perhaps this should lie in the domain of the AIDA National to enforce... something like 3 BO's in a row and you're banned from the next national comp? It's a hard one.

I can also understand and appreciate that the high level athletes are at the very top of their game and have a different emphasis than many, that of breaking world records and competing against probably only a handful of other athletes. In this regard a higher rate of BO could be expected and probably should be tolerated. In this sport it's not often a world record breaker makes the rules.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Ben

[naiad]

I don't agree that competitors who BO should be banned. There can be many factors contributing to a BO, including stress, pool too cold/warm, certain foods and drinks, tiredness, previous exercise etc. These can't always be anticipated - if the competition pool or surrounding area is extremely cold or warm, it is unlikely anyone would have known this in advance.

Banning competitors who BO assumes that all BOs are caused by unrealistic performances, but they can be caused by many other factors. If someone is blacking out repeatedly in competition or training due to excessive performances or incorrect technique, I think they should be advised about this, and eventually banned if the situation becomes unacceptable.

Lucia

[efattah]

In Canada, fewer and fewer people are attending competitions, and in fact the popularity of freediving competitions seems to be on the decline in general (around the world).

Banning the few competitors which actually show up for the competition would pretty much wipe out the possibility of any more competitions.

In a world where there were thousands of competitors, and only a few highly qualified people actually qualified for the competitions, then I would agree with the 'ban' principle. However that isn't the real world.

[BennyB]

Keep in mind too that the organisers always have the right to not allow particular people to enter the comp - people who have no medicals, or people who have a proven history of irresponsible behaviour in comps.


Eric - can you shed some light as to why comp freediving is becoming less popular? Have there been less competitions in Canada lately than in the past?

Cheers,
Ben