Dynamic Comp Rules - Pulling

[trux]

What about installing electric fences at the pool edge? That might help efficiently.

[josedesucre]

I think Cebastian has a very valid point: "same for all" is not an argument.
Why not discuss the logic, or the reasons, for the rule?
The objective is fairnes, but if judges can distinguish the fraction of a second between the moment when the hand touches the wall, or the line, and when the mouth emerges from the water, surely they can also notice if the diver takes advantage to move a little forward. In this case, they can penalize or deduct an appropriate distance, half a meter or even one meter, but not 20 meters. Twenty meters is not only ridiculous, it is mean.

[trux]

Well, the distance between the top of the head and the palm is about 30cm, maybe a few cm more at tall persons, and while the freediver usually surfaces rather vertically or diagonally, the distance he/she can gain is maximally a very few centimeters. This is far below the tolerance of distance measurement during the competitions, so it won't be a problem. The problem, as Bill wrote, is in the fact that competitors should have the same conditions in all competitions, regardless of the lane or pool they compete at. When you are in a middle lane, you may decide to surface earlier (consciously or not) than you would in a side lane, just because you miss the support.

While it is hard to estimate the psychological impact of the missing support, I understand that such a sever penalization was chosen - rather than compensation, it was meant as a deterrent. However, in this way the exact opposite of the desired effect (same conditions for all) was achieved. Before, performing in the middle lane might have a slight disadvantage in the missing support, but now there is a huge disadvantage to compete in the side line - just because grabbing the edge is rather an automatic reflex. Now it is much easier to compete in the middle lane (no side jets, no psychological stress due to the need to hold on the edge, ..).

So I think the best would be a rule excluding side lanes from competitions entirely, otherwise we cannot have equal conditions for all. Or, at least, each freediver should have the right to refuse performing in the side (or middle) lane.

[martin_gk]

Is there any diving in the middle lanes in competition anywhere?

I have not seen any and from a safety and judgment point of view I would not recodment it to anyone trying to organize an event like that. Safety is too far from the pool edge and judging someone that is ony 2m away from you must be much easier then one who is over at the other lane.

But that would belong in the other threat, of course.

[trux]

Originally Posted by martin_gk

Is there any diving in the middle lanes in competition anywhere?

There sure are. And if there were none, there would be no reason for creating this rule, because the conditions would already be equal for all.

[cebaztian]

Can it be summarized:

Keep the rule:
- Fairness - same circumstances for all (midlanes aswell as hard edges).
- No pulling, extra help.
- See it as a part of SP - a task that has to be performed in order to show mental/physical control.

Get rid of the rule:
- KISS - less rules - better judging - more comprehensible sport.
- Safety - allow a "natural" grab for balance and control.

The fairness problem was easily solved in WC Laussane by having a line at the edge (as seen in Wolles photo).

Sebastian

[jome]

Yes, and unless you need all 8 or so lanes, why not just have all of the starts in the middle and use the ones on the side for warmup? That's what we did last year...

But of course big competitions, such as the world champs, will see starts on all lanes. Which by the way, makes the event about 100x more interesting for specatators. It has to be seen to truly appreciate the difference

[perow1]

Why would it be more safe to pull up from the water than to use the momentum of your movement to get your airways over the surface and then rest your arms on the edge?

[BennyB]

Very interesting comments so far.

I'm interested to know if there really is that much difference between pulling yourself up from a wall or from a lane rope. Ultimately the athlete is going to lean on the edge anyway, regardless of it being a rope or a wall. I've never pulled myself up from a dynamic so I don't know if there's a huge difference between the two.

In the Nice comp in 2006 inner and outer lanes were used. The outer lanes had ropes put up about 30cm inside the pool edge to make it the same as the inner lane. When I came up it was easy enough to lean on the rope and support my weight (at the time I would have been about 94kg incl lead), so perhaps pulling yourself up wouldn't be too different with either rope or pool edge?

Cheers,
Ben

[perow1]

Exactly BennyB, I think it has to do with what you are used to do in training. So if the rules are one way why not train according to the rules and it will not feel that strange to refrain from pulling. If one thinks its silly with the rule since it is no gain with pulling I cannot see the loss either.

[naiad]

Originally Posted by jome

While we're discussing, I voted for the removal of the verbal ok from the SP. It should be replaced with something else or at least for open water discips be just removed. The first thing a surfacing diver should do is breathe, not try to speak. Just my opinnion, but I feel this compromises safety quite a bit...

I agree. I am just too out of breath, mostly with dynamic, and 15 seconds is a very short time. Glad to know I'm not the only one who finds this unreasonable.

I started a thread on the middle vs side lane debate...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/...-dynamics.html

[cebaztian]

One less rule is always a gain.

There must be a good reason for it being there.

Sebastian

[trux]

Originally Posted by cebaztian

There must be a good reason for it being there.

I think there is. The motoric control of larynx muscles (controlling the breathing and also allowing speaking) is often among the first to be affected by LMC. So the ability to pronounce "I am OK" not only confirms that your brain works sufficiently to do it, but also that your ability to breath and speak is not hindered by LMC. I do not think that the pronouncing of the very short "I am OK" can in any way limit your breathing after surfacing - you can very well pronounce it during one of the exhales, and the 15s are to my mind more than enough.

[trux]

Originally Posted by cebaztian

Can it be summarized:

Keep the rule:
- Fairness - same circumstances for all (midlanes aswell as hard edges).
- No pulling, extra help.
- See it as a part of SP - a task that has to be performed in order to show mental/physical control.

Get rid of the rule:
- KISS - less rules - better judging - more comprehensible sport.
- Safety - allow a "natural" grab for balance and control.

What about adding a survey (vote) to this thread to see a little bit more opinions. Not that I think it can influence AIDA's decision, but it would be interesting to know anyway.

I'd suggest following options:

1. No pulling; disqualify the competitor instead of penalizing
2. Keep the rule as is (no pulling, 10pt/20m penalty)
3. Keep the rule as is but do not allow side lanes (mandatory lines on both sides of the lane and hence same conditions for everyone)
4. Keep the rule, but reduce the penalty to a realistic value (i.e. 1pt/2m)
5. Keep the rule, but reduce the penalty to a realistic value (i.e. 1pt/2m) + no side lanes allowed
6. No pulling during performance, but allow pulling at surfacing
7. Allow pulling both during and at the end of the performance

[laminar]

Trux,

I think these discussions can indeed influence AIDA rules. I have seen it happen. Of courses, the discussion needs to spread further afield.

Pete