Dynamic Comp Rules - Pulling

[trux]

OK, so could Ben or a moderator edit this thread and add the vote, so that we do not need to start a new one?

[martin_gk]

Just so that we are clear what we are talking about I was trying to find the rule on the AIDA web site. I found this document:
REGULATIONS FOR INTERNATIONAL
FREEDIVING COMPETITIONS
VERSION 11.2 (2006.16.02 AIDA/PV)

Sating under §5.17
Any propulsion assistance other than swimming movements is forbidden (except in case of thrusting against the side of the wall during turns). This means that the nose and/or mouth of the athlete have to exit before or simultaneously, when grabbing the pool edge or the lane-rope in the pool.

It dose not say anything about penalty here though. Am I am looking at the right document?

Sorry for the confusion.

[trux]

Well, I found that the author of a thread cannot edit it and add a poll, so I created a new one here: http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediv...ng-survey.html

[martin_gk]

rather than making a poll I would like to understand better what these rules are for and how they came to be.

[trux]

Originally Posted by martin_gk

rather than making a poll I would like to understand better what these rules are for and how they came to be.

Read this thread from the beginning, I think it was explained sufficiently.

[jome]

Originally Posted by trux

I think there is. The motoric control of larynx muscles (controlling the breathing and also allowing speaking) is often among the first to be affected by LMC. So the ability to pronounce "I am OK" not only confirms that your brain works sufficiently to do it, but also that your ability to breath and speak is not hindered by LMC. I do not think that the pronouncing of the very short "I am OK" can in any way limit your breathing after surfacing - you can very well pronounce it during one of the exhales, and the 15s are to my mind more than enough.

Hmm, well you are right. In fact I suffered such a failure in my last competiton static. I tried to utter the words, but the voice was just cut off somehow, because I was spasming in the larynx or something, so yeah, it was definately not an ok performance, but without the verbal ok I could have passed it. But that's not why I'm against the rule (it was a crappy static anyhow)

But now we would need to consider is this a good or a bad thing? For example, my situation could have been significantly worse if I had tried and tried to say "I'm ok" instead of breathing.

Especially in open water, where you have waves splashing etc etc, the recovery breathing, IMO, should not be compromised.

Then again, not huge problems with this rule...But just some food for thought and further discussion in the cold winter times when the bureaucrats crawl away form the sunlight into warm offices to make silly desicions...

[cebaztian]

Forcing athletes to talk during SP is definitly a good thing. As mentioned above it is one of the first signs that will "detect" LMC.

I do not believe as some say - that it can cause the onset of LMC.

I believe it is an important part of the rules that keeps LMC out fo the sport to a greater extent.

If you dont have energy (oxygen) enouh to say: ImOK. Well then dive shallower.

Sebastian

[trux]

Well, I see Jome's point - I think he is right to certain extent that you may forget to breath if you concentrate on speaking. But on the other hand, if you train the protocol properly and frequently, you will learn to first make a few deep breaths before doing the sign and telling "I am OK". If you exhale and inhale at least once before trying to pronounce it (and you should definitely do at least 3-5 breaths before doing it!), then I do not think there is any increased security risk - if you black out or get samba at this point, then you'd get it even when not trying to speak.

Should we consider the speaking as a security risk, then the visual OK and the removing of facial equipment would need to be considered a risk too - because if you are close to LMC/BO and try to concentrate on these tasks, you may forget to breath too. It means we would need to eliminate the entire protocol and would be back to the old times when only observation was used to detect samba, and that lead to many subjective judgments and many protests. Although it is clear that the recent SP is not perfect, I doubt that there are many freedivers wanting go back where it was before.

[BennyB]

I think as far as the pool is concerned, the current SP is probably as close as we'll get it to being ideal. Although not perfect, it both captures legitimate LMC symptoms and is reasonably fair to the athlete. If we change it now it'll only be at the expense of something else.

SP in the ocean? I'm sure we can do better...

[naiad]

Originally Posted by cebaztian

If you dont have energy (oxygen) enouh to say: ImOK. Well then dive shallower.

I think different people must experience this differently, because some don't see the problem, and others do. For me it is not a problem of oxygen, but of CO2 and exhaustion. It mostly happens with dynamic. Even in non-apnea situations this can happen - many athletes are exhausted and very out of breath after a race.

Possibly it is my own problem - I have tried to do the thing of a few deep breaths after surfacing, but I don't have any conscious control of my breathing at that time, and I can't tell if 15 seconds have passed or not. That is not because of LMC or being close to the limit, but just because I haven't been able to learn. I described it on this thread...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginne...e-problem.html

[trux]

I am quite surprised that only very few freedivers voted in the poll about the pulling rule. And some of those who woted are not even competitors, so at the moment it is really hard to know what the general opinion is. Not even many of those who were quite active here, participated. Jome, Wolle, Laminar, Sebastian, Jorg, ... dont you want to add your vote? And others, active or passive freedivers - your opinion is certainly welcome too!

[Jorg]

So many threads about the same thing... can't keep up... aaarggghhhh ;-)

[trux]

Originally Posted by Jorg

So many threads about the same thing... can't keep up... aaarggghhhh ;-)

Yes, that's right. I wanted to avoid it too, but unfortunatelly it was impossible to add the poll to the current thread.

[Jorg]

so close this one and continue on the other one...?