Dynamic Comp Rules - Pulling [survey]

[trux]

As discussed in the thread http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediv...s-pulling.html, I am opening this new thread with a poll to allow DB members to express their opinion.

[BennyB]

I agree with Bill S. that because of the differences in pools we need some sort of methodology that can be applied equally to all pools.

I would be happy with a change in rules that suggests no change to penalties whilst an athlete is in mid performance (ie. if they pull themselves along the bottom), but a penalty if they grab the side and pull themselves up before their airways are out of the water. The penalty I would suggest would be equivalent to 1m (2 points).

My reasoning is that 1m is the most benefit an athlete can have by grabbing the side and pulling themselves up, therefore a 1m penalty will mitigate this. I see no need for a penalty that penalises more than the athlete could have given themselves.

My logic is as follows: if the athlete pulls themselves up out of laziness then take away the advantage. If the athlete pulls themselves up because they feel they're close to BO then fine, this is a safety issue - but i'd suggest that if they were that close that they had to pull themselves up, then they would be quite challenged in passing the SP, which ultimately tells the athlete that they pushed too hard.

Cheers,
Ben

[osusim]

At the same moment we've got 7.8.2:
"If any part of the athlete's body surfaces outside of the “grace zone” of 5 meters between two turns in the dynamic disciplines, a penalty of 5 POINTS per occasion is applied."

[Jorg]

Other: Allow pulling both during and at the end of the performance, but do not allow side lanes (mandatory lines on both sides of the lane)

[cebaztian]

Originally Posted by Jorg

Other: Allow pulling both during and at the end of the performance, but do not allow side lanes (mandatory lines on both sides of the lane)

Yes, in those few cases when needed.

Sebastian

[perow1]

Pulling during a performance might not benefit the athlete that much, only for balance and such. Having support from the bottom or from lines may be a great advantage if you make a technical error. Still, allowing pulling during a performance brings an ugliness to the dive. I think the rule forces te athlete to focus on swimming not grabbing.

I can see the point with loosing a rule, that it is always a gain with little rules. On the other hand only allowing central lanes is adding a rule.

[Walrus]

I'd just like to point out the rules may say 'pulling' but in fact you will get hit with a penalty (sometimes a DQ) just for 'touching' the lane rope or wall before your airway breaks. A judge can't tell if you are pulling, or just swimming up but touching the wall. From my point of view it's a timing thing, touch or grab the wall a fraction too early and you will be done. I made this mistake last year in a comp, and it was so close the judges had to freeze the video and show it frame by frame. When my hand touched the top of the wall my airway was barely 2 cm below the water....

When I do max dynamics I pack close to 3 litres, and need a lot of neckweight 12pounds+ to compensate. In training I would breathe out before breaking the surface, then grab a hold of the wall to prevent going back down in the water. ie once I have breathed out, and not at packing volume I would sink. I know Tom S wears HEAPS of weight and packs a lot, so he has this even worse. A year or so ago he got a DQ (world record rules is DQ for this vs penalty) for this, he obviously needs to grab something to prevent from sinking. Grabbing the wall to support you at the end of a dynamic is by far the best option safety wise, for some freedivers is the only option. It makes it real tough you have to be %100 spot on with your timing and don't get any allowances for small mistakes.


Cheers,
Wal

[Mullins]

Could always just pop the neckweight off, that would shoot you to the surface pretty quick. Any rules against doing this? I also wear a fairly hefty weight, and I'm contemplating doing this at the next comp.

[perow1]

Originally Posted by Walrus

Grabbing the wall to support you at the end of a dynamic is by far the best option safety wise, for some freedivers is the only option. It makes it real tough you have to be %100 spot on with your timing and don't get any allowances for small mistakes.

Yes, grabbing something after surfacing is necessary if the pool is deeper than what makes it possible just to put your feet down.

100% timing and no misstakes is what defines a world class performance to me, and it is hard to go over your limit and still have good timing.

[wolleneugebauer]

If you see a yellow card, the performance will not accepted for a national record...

[trux]

Originally Posted by perow1

100% timing and no misstakes is what defines a world class performance to me, ...

That may be true and it is not the point of the discussion or reason for being against the rule. The main problem is that the rule creates more injustice and more space for result manipulation and speculations than we had without it. So instead of the intended compensation for unequal conditions, it adds more inequality.

Some judges are apparently less strict or less vigilant than others. Some judges may accidentally oversee the early grab, or a touch of the wall or of the bottom. And some judges may even intentionally "help" a countryman or a friend by closing one eye (not that I claim that it actually happened, but it is certainly possible).

I viewed hundreds of videos from dynamic competitions and can tell you that I wonder why many of the performances were not penalized. Of course, the video may be misleading, the judge may often see it better, but I doubt very strongly that the rule is always applied correctly.

I really think that competitions would be much fairer if there were no such rule. Excluding side lanes, or delimiting them with additional lines in a safe distance from the edge would do all what is necessary for equal conditions, would eliminate the need for the rule, would make competitions fairer, would avoid for result manipulation, and would make the rules simpler.

[perow1]

I may sound like a strong advocate of the rule, but actually I think grabbing in the end of the performance does not really matter. I do not however want to se grabbing or pulling during a performance.

The case with unequal judging is not exlusive for this rule, almost any rule has a possibility for the judge to interpret it and judge by his/her standards. This is a part of every sport and a problem as long as you have rules. One solution is less/no rules, but this is not always a good solution. Another way is raising the standard of the judges, this is not always easy.

If the side lanes are exluded i really would like to see something sturdy to grab after surfacing. As Wal stated it is great to have something to hold onto after surfaceing because of pure balance reasons or because of weighting. It would be very unfortunate to se good performances getting DQ because of airways under water since there is nothing to grab. This could happen even after a short swim when you are in full control if the pool is deep and the float is unstable or the weighting is heavy. If this were the case it would also make the safety worse if someone who has gone over the top only has a unstable float or a loose line to grab.

[f3dive]

In Walrus' case - consider this:
he stands at least 6'4" (probably more) is wearing a mono and some serious neck weight that makes surfacing a real effort (even without having just swum a huge distance) How does one make a turn in 1.2 metres of water and come up without support?
Should he be DQ'ed for seeking support within split seconds of his head surfacing?

[perow1]

Well, no. I think the current rules say penalty, IF support is taken before surfacing and nothing whatsoever if support is taken after surfacing. Having the same measurments I find it more important to have something sturdy to grab after the surfaceing than being allowed to grab before.

[cebaztian]

Originally Posted by trux

Some judges are apparently less strict or less vigilant than others.

Yes, happens all the time. We are being judged very differently. If I was in the tech commission I would not rest until the judges are given a manual on HOW TO INTERPRET RULES. With video and pictures maybe.

Post mechanical movements? Exactly what is this?
SP - One OK sign. Define an Ok sign. What does ONE mean?
TOWARDS the judge. What does towards mean exactly?
Is FORBIDDEN the same as DQ.
Is touching the same as pulling?
Can one pull with a flat hand on the pool bottom?

... probably more.

Sebastian

But at the same time lets not forget that most people agree that they are getting better and better.