Who is doped?

[trux]

Originally Posted by shoutatthesky

Good point Sergiu, There is a very fine line. The important thing is that the line is drawn by an independent body like WADA. I don't think garlic is on the prohibited substances list but I am pretty sure coca and cannabis are.

As Eric pointed out, there is a big difference between doping in freediving and other sports, so I completely agree with him, that AIDA should rather start own research than relying on WADA. However, such research is certainly not in AIDA's budget. Unlike at blood doping, at many other substances the desired effects for freediving are opposite than those at other sports. For freediving, rather the sedative effects are interesting, while at other sports stimulants are needed, which would be counterproductive for a freediver.

So actually all these WADA doping controls (in its current form) are pretty useless for freediving and are just good for filling pockets of laboratories owners (and emptying those of freedivers). I bet that 90% of the expensive laboratory tests are made for substances that would help no freediver, and oppositely substances that should be banned are not being tested at all.

As for using garlic and other "natural" substances - that is is quite a controversary topic. Personally I think that even using such natural substances should not be allowed without any control or limits. And I also do not quite agree that using natural nutrition, herbs, or drugs is always beneficial for the health. Everything has its limits, so once you start abusing it, it will flip the natural balance in your body and start damaging it.

Imagine: if a freediver gets better results after consuming 100g of garlic extract, the next one will try it with a pound. Not only gas masks for the audience, organizers, safety divers, and judges would have to be mandatory, but the effect may indeed at some point start damaging the health of the freediver. And the next freediver will get super concentrated extract from one ton of garlic. In the next stage scientist will genetically manipulate garlic to have 100 times stronger effect. Etc, etc. So now, where exactly is the limit of natural nutrition and doping? I am afraid we cannot tell it without making serious scientific research seeing how the effects and the risks are related to concentrations of those substances and start setting allowed limits (better lower than higher).

[BennyB]

Eric exactly how sick were you after consuming 100gm's of garlic extract?

[JPPLAY]

How did you learn about the affects of using garlic for freediving? Do you have any references on it? It would be interesting to understand why it causes the benefits it does for freedivers.

[efattah]

Garlic was used by polynesian freedivers as well as Jacques Mayol, as described in Homo Delphinus. My serious experiment in garlic was based on the following study which I purchased online. Here is just the abstract:

The Protective Effect of
Allium sativum
L.
Clove Aqueous and Methanolic Extracts
Against Hypoxia-induced Lethality in Mice

Hossein Hosseinzadeh* and Nargess Sadati

Pharmaceutical Research Center, Pharmacodynamy and Toxicology Department, School of Pharmacy, Mashhad University of
Medical Sciences, PO Box 91775-1365, Mashhad, I.R. Iran.

The antihypoxic activity of Allium sativum
clove (garlic) aqueous and methanolic extracts was studied in mice.
The extracts of garlic showed that the antihypoxic effect was dose-dependent. The minimum effective doses
of aqueous and methanolic extracts were 0.2 g/kg and 5.12 g/kg, respectively. Phenytoin, 50 mg/kg, and Rphenylisopropyladenosine
(R-PIA), 1.6 mg/kg (R-PIA) as positive controls increased survival time up to 52.5 ±2.9 min and 120.5 ± 6 min, respectively, compared to normal saline (34.73 ±0.71 min). The high doses of aqueous (16.9 g/kg) and methanolic (12.8 g/kg) extracts increased survival time up to 73.17 ± 4.9 and 68.41 ± 3.7, respectively. These results indicated that the extracts of A. sativum cloves have a protective effect against hypoxiainduced lethality in mice. Copyright © 2003 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

[efattah]

Seizures Accelerate Anoxia-Induced Neuronal
Death in the Neonatal Rat Hippocampus

Volodymyr Dzhala, PhD, Yehezkiel Ben-Ari, PhD, and Roustem Khazipov, MD, PhD

Seizures occurring in infants with hypoxia are frequently associated with an ominous prognosis. There is, however, no
direct evidence that seizures are involved in the pathogenesis of hypoxia-induced neuronal damage. Here, we report that
seizures significantly aggravate the hypoxic state by accelerating rapid anoxic depolarization (AD) and associated neuronal
death in preparations of the intact hippocampus of neonatal rats in vitro. Under control conditions, prolonged
episodes of anoxia/aglycemia induced rapid suppression of synaptic activity followed sequentially by brief bursts of
epileptiform activity and then by rapid AD. AD was associated with irreversible neuronal damage manifested by irreversible
loss of the membrane potential, synaptic responses, and neuronal degeneration. Aggravation of electrographic
seizure activity during anoxic episodes by the adenosine A1 receptor antagonists DPCPX and caffeine or the
g-aminobutyric acid-A receptor antagonist bicuculline or pretreatment with 4-aminopyridine accelerated AD and associated
neuronal death by up to twofold, whereas blockade of seizure activity by the glutamate receptor antagonists or
tetrodotoxin significantly delayed the onset of AD. This report provides direct evidence for the need to prevent seizures
during neonatal brain hypoxia.
Dzhala V, Ben-Ari Y, Khazipov R. Seizures accelerate anoxia-induced neuronal death in the
neonatal rat hippocampus.

Ann Neurol 2000;48:632–640


--------------


Influence of combined treatment with NMDA and non-NMDA receptor
antagonists on electroconvulsions in mice

Stanistaw J. Czuczwar *, Kinga K. Borowicz, Zdzistaw Kleinrok, Piotr Tutka,
Tomasz Zarnowski, Waldemar A. Turski

Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Medical University School, Jaczewskiego 8, 20-090 Lublin, Poland

Received 28 December 1994; revised 25 April 1995; accepted 28 April 1995
Abstract

a-Amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-isoxazole-4-propionate/kainate (AMPA/kainate) receptor antagonists (at subthreshold doses
against electroconvulsions), 1-(4-aminophenyl)-4-methyl-7,8-methylenedioxy-5H-2,3-benzodiazepine (GYKI 52466 at maximally 5
mg/kg) and 2,3-dihydroxy-6-nitro-7-sulfamoylbenzo(F)quinoxaline (NBQX at maximally 20 mg/kg) enhanced the protective
effects of NMDA receptor antagonists, MK-801 (dizocilpine) or 2-(2-carboxypiperazine-4-yl)-l-propenyl-l-phosphonic acid
(o-CPP-ene), against electroconvulsions. Similarly, MK-801 or D-CPP-ene reduced the EDs0 values of both NBQX and GYKI
52466 against maximal electroshock. The adverse effects of D-CPP-ene, evaluated in the chimney and rotorod tests, were
potentiated by both GYKI 52466 (2.5 mg/kg) and NBQX (10 mg/kg). Also, n-CPP-ene (0.1 mg/kg) worsened the motor
performance of mice pretreated with GYKI 52466 in the rotorod test. Neither MK-801 (0.025 mg/kg) nor D-CPP-ene (0.1
mg/kg) affected the NBQX-induced impairment of motor coordination. Similarly, GYKI 52466 (2.5 mg/kg) or NBQX (10
mg/kg) did not influence the performance of mice treated with MK-801 (0.2 mg/kg). It may be concluded that the blockade of
more than one subtype of glutamate receptors leads to a more pronounced anticonvulsive effect when compared with the effect
of blockade of an individual receptor subtype. In some cases more efficient seizure protection was not associated with increased
adverse effects.
Keywords: AMPA receptor antagonist; NMDA receptor

[efattah]

If you read the two above studies (in full), you will find that they show that:
- Hypoxic seizures cause some brain damage, and the damage is caused by the seizure, not the early blackout
- Some drugs can prevent the seizure part of the blackout, and also delay the blackout and protect the brain dramatically
- and there are also easy to obtain herbs which operate in the same mechanisms


If such a herb were administered during a competition, there would be no sambas, only blackouts. Therefore, disqualification would be extremely obvious.

[cebaztian]

Originally Posted by trux

that AIDA should rather start own research than relying on WADA. However, such research is certainly not in AIDA's budget.

Yes and no.
One could start with actually excluding anything that is NOT beneficial for freediving. We would come down to some 10-20-30 (?) substances on the IOC/WADA list that would be forbidden for freedivers. I imagine this work would be pretty easy and there are lots of medics/scientist out there who no doubt could do this for free for us. Its just a question of asking (the right way:-).
Problem is - the tests will probably cost the same. Wada has its routines and they check for everything on their lists.

Sebastian

apnea and doping

[shark_whisperer]

this is sort of my oversimplified interpretation of what we should consider natural, but it also still begs the question "how do you enforce it?". Looking at the underlying philosophy of freediving, it seems that the goal is to get back to our primal dive capacity. The capacity we are born with, and capable of attaining on our own, as if we lived without any form of technology to develop pills or supplements. Anything we cant produce from scratch, or pick out of the ground could be considered unnatural, right? i suppose this is a bit of clouded issue anyway, because we use fins, wetsuits, masks and the like. just my $.02.

[Bill]

Thanks for the thread Sebastian. As soon as I can add something, I will. Every time I think I understand drugs and doping I get another surprise. Who'd have believed that Vinokourov would pull a stunt like that? For what?

[kmo]

Very interesting thread and lots of good points raised.

I think that we only have to look as far as professional bodybuilding to see where a free-and-easy approach to performance enhancing drugs can take any sport. None of those guys seriously deny taking steroids, and as a result there are basically two sports - one with 'natural' body builders, and one with the guys who do as they please.

But as pointed out many times, it can be hard to know where to draw the line.

[laminar]

I've been following the coverage of the controversial withdrawal of Rasmussen, the current Tour leader, by his own team.

Here is an excerpt from the Bicycling.com blog from today's stage (17), which I think is pretty interesting and relevant to this discussion:

Q: But Rasmussen was tested in the race and was always negative. So even if he was screwing around beforehand, he couldn’t be cheating during the race, right?

A: Yes, Rasmussen’s been negative so far. Rasmussen has eagerly assumed the Lance Armstrong mantle of the “most tested man in cycling.” A bit too eagerly – although he claims to have passed 14 in-race tests, the results of all of those are not yet known.

More importantly, know that the tests that currently exist do not catch everything. For some techniques, such as withdrawing, storing and re-injecting your own blood (autologous blood doping) there is no test that can detect them. Vinokourov allegedly tested positive for homologous blood doping, or injecting blood from a donor with a compatible major blood type – there is a clear test for that. To use autologous blood doping as an example, some tests can indicate it, such as blood volume testing or OFF-score testing, but neither of these are approved by WADA. With the severity of a two-year ban for a positive test, test methods must not only be scientifically sound, but capable of withstanding a legal challenge. Most come equipped with standard deviations that allow generous leeway for a rider. For example, the EPO urine test must show at least 80 percent of the isoforms to be considered metabolites of synthetic EPO, even though it’s arguable that a much lower threshold could show EPO use.

But even for techniques that we do have a test for, such as EPO, the window of detection is often limited. (my emphasis) The sensitivity of the urine EPO test is limited to about 72 hours after injection. The blood test, by itself, is not considered legally valid proof of EPO use because it cannot distinguish naturally occurring EPO from synthetic. But the effectiveness of EPO as a doping technique is much more long-lived. An aggressive course of EPO taken in the six or so weeks prior to a Grand Tour can take the rider’s haematocrit, or red blood cell count expressed as a percentage of total blood volume, from a normal level – say, 40 to 44 percent – to close to the UCI threshold of 50. That increase is directly correlated to power output. Over the course of a Tour, it will decline several percentage points, but the effect of the EPO use lasts the entire Tour. By contrast, the administration of the EPO itself ends two to three weeks prior to the race, so by the time a racer is controlled in the race, all legally verifiable traces of its use are gone. The racer gets the benefit, but will never test positive.

This is the reason accurate and timely whereabouts reporting is absolutely essential to clean sport: the most effective doping in endurance sports like cycling takes place not during the race, but preceeding it, and out-of-competition testing is the only way to catch it. Again, over the past 24 months Rasmussen missed two tests outright, failed to report his location on two others, and revealed that two of the responsible agencies had never tested him during that time. No one can prove Rasmussen is doping. But neither can he claim that he’s made every effort to show he’s not.

Based on this take on things, it would seem very plausible for freedivers to dope, especially for pool competitions, which would be quite a bit safer, I assume, in terms of minimizing the risks of having a high hemotocrit while deep diving.

Does AIDA perform a hemotocrit test? (I have never heard of it). While this is controversial because of assumptions about the effects of freediving on blood volume immediately following a dive and in the long term, I would imagine that diving doctors could develop a protocol.

It would be interesting to know the hemotocrits of competitive divers.

[Kimmo]

Maybe there may have been some discussion inside Aida to check blood haemoglobin values in the future, I guess.
We tried a little blood control/study here in Finnish nationals last year with cheap equipments just to see how these systems and our blood values may work (we lended our equips and a nice doctor As the system was a cheap one it was not quite accurate but it showed that all the competitors in that competition had Hb values about 150 (men) and less for the women and it showed to me that this idea might work also in bigger competitions.

- kimmo

[DeepThought]

Very interesting thread, science and competition ethics-wise.
So basically, whoever wants to protect himself easily from anoxic depolarization damage without becoming a herbalist could just get this?
Bulk Nutrition - Retail Nutritional Supplements, Bodybuilding and Fitness Articles, and Bulk Specialty Powders!
How is it different ethically (and medically) than consuming a herb that raises your GABA levels?
Is anything beyond adaptation that results from training is un-natural now?
I don't recall hyperbaric tents being looked at as cheating, and it's an adaptation that doesn't result from training.
Is banning a protective substance ethical only because it might hurt competitiveness?
On the other hand, raising the bar in a way that excludes people that aren't "as dedicated" ethical?
What is more important?

I don't think we're supposed to model ourselves by our aquatic predecessors if they ever existed. I doubt any of them reached the age of 70 years or 70 meters depth....