Need help C4

[azapa]

Dave, having met you at VB2008 (simon here) I can't believe that you say 30's are too stiff for a big bloke like you? I was recommend them by martin stepaneck (i dove with him so it was not a generic recommendation). From your other post too I can see you are saying that there is a general misconception and people are buying too stiff a fin? I remember you tested fins for immersion times to a certain depth, but the conclusion was that you may have been pumping harder to compensate between one and the other.
Can you give us more information regarding the softer fin is better line of thought..

[Mullins]

Hey Simon,

Yeah there were some obvious problems with that test i.e. I may have been compensating for softer fins. However I actually felt less fatigued when using the softer fins so even if I compensated by changing technique, I appeared (non-scientific test here so being cautious) still to use less energy. The C4 30s felt hard to kick with and I actually moved more slowly despite thinking I was going fast. I reckon they were forcing me to bend my knees more, which created heaps of drag and wasted energy.

I was able to accelerate just as fast and maintain almost exactly the same profile with the soft fins, so even if I did kick faster there was no problem with power not being available leaving the surface and the bottom. This is the thing most people seem to worry about - including me, initially. I would like to do the test a more rigorously at some stage though, it was a bit limited.

After also failing to find any difference in performance between carbon and plastic blades (despite carbon feeling 'snappier') I switched to using Cressi 3000LDs for almost everything. They're still a bit too stiff but pretty good, and I've taken them to 50m with a 6.5mm suit and heaps of lead so they're not short of power. Could go plenty deeper if I was masochistic enough to want to pursue CWT with bifins!

My second choice are my C4 80s as they're about the correct stiffness for me when using a 3mm suit, I just don't use them very often because they're expensive and I don't want to wreck them on rocks. They're also a bit too long, the blade tips stay straight and flop around which indicates they could stand to be a few cm shorter. Actually I'd probably swap them for a pair of Falcon or Flap 25s if anybody in this neck of the woods is keen...

[demasoni]

I use C4 Flap 25's mounted in Sporasub pockets. I'm 170cm tall and weigh 65 kilos. I normally use the C4's with a 3mm suit with 4 - 6 lbs of lead. Having tried stiffer fins like the Matrix #3 blades, Cressi Gara 2000 HD's, Omer BAT 30's, and Picasso Black Team's, I found that stiffer blades make me kick slower in order to kick with decent technique. Also, stiffer blades seems to cause my shoulders to rotate back and forth more on the ascent.

Both of these factors force me to try to control my kick and form and waste energy - mentally and physically. IMHO, I say go with the softest fins you can get away with.

[chrismar]

Hmmm, now I want a pair of mustang 25s

[Mullins]

I really didn't like the mustangs. Too wide. Much prefer the falcons

[oflow]

as far as I know, the c4 falcons come in all different types of footpockets. I think I've seen like 4 different brands of footpocket with the c4's. I guess it just depends on which one fits you the best. Have you ever tried an omer fin or picasso fin? if you like the way the footpocket feels then I would just rock it! I'm pretty sure that the performance in the blades would be the same, but the fitting factor is what I'd be sketchy on. I love the Omer, Cressi, and Picasso footpockets. I'm also thinking of hookin up on some c4's. I've also heard that they fit in alot more footpockets as well. hope that helps. peace.

[GHOSTS]

thank you everyone for your support in working this out for me.
Now from reading all this i am still confused , i know its about technique most of the time but i think you need to have the right gear to balance it out.
I have posted up my swimming style can some have a look and tell me what you think if its me or the fins.

YouTube - Dive training

Nata here is your answers

a) Where are you from?and where do you usually dive ? Sydney Australia , i dive from a boat most of the time, i go to the queensland also the depths of the reefs are anywhere from 10m to 35m there. there are a lot of deep caves that i wont to get too and till have bottom time, i wear an open cell wetsuit 3mm and have about 12-pounds i think of lead

b) How tall are you and what do you weigh? 6,3 191-cm 92-kg

c) Are you an experienced diver? been spearing for 2 years dive around the 15m if i have a good breath up i can do around 20m

d) For which type of dive do you use them ( apnea, spearfishing, snorkeling ecc) ? spearfishing

[oflow]

yo ghosts, check it. from what i see, you seem to have the short burst type of kickstroke. If the c4's are what you're after, then the 15's are the ones for you, cuz they're soft. long, smooth kickstrokes are required for the 30's and 40's. even the Omer bat 25's seem like they would be more your style. I just got my Omer Pegaso(hard) fins in the mail the other day and they are insane. With long, smooth, even strokes I've obtained ridiculous lengths in the water. I have yet to take them in water that I can descend in.....cuz I've only used them in the pool a couple of times. But with short, powerful bursts, similar to your finning style, I'd go with soft to meduim stiffness of blades. But PLEASE try to experiment with some before you make a purchase, if it is possible. Again, I hope this helps. And if all else fails........ fuck it. Go with your instincts man. Peace.

[Mullins]

Quite a narrow kick, and the movement you do have seems to come mainly from your knees bending. I reckon those fins of yours would be great if you used a wider, slower kick from the hips. Again, easier to do this in the sea than in the pool because you might find your fins hitting the surface or the bottom.

[GHOSTS]

well i did a bit of testing with the fins and doing a really small
kick cycle made it 4 sec faster than normal on a 25 m pool , but i felt it burned up more energy

[Mullins]

A small kick cycle, i.e. even narrower and faster than you were already kicking? Did you also try a slower, wider kick?

[DivingDane]

Hi

I'll agree with mullins on this one. i'm 6'4" and weigh around the 80-85kg mark and own a pair of DiveR mediums aswell as the OMER Pegaso mediums (a little softer and shorter than the DiveR) i find my self much more comfortable and more efficient with the softer fin however the DiveR has more than enough grunt when needed, have used C4 once and they were very nice but i know for a fact that i can dive as deep as my friend with C4 with my DiveR blades without a hassle so i doubt you'll get much of an improvement.

The fins arent your limiting factor they dont appear to be over flexing, i'd slow down your kick cycle and increase the amplitude, kicking more from the hips and thighs than from your knees, i think you'll find the stroke much more effecient and the dive more enjoyable.

My 2c worth

DD

[roy_nexus_6]

Is there a store in Los Angeles area that sells C4's ? I'd like to take a look and try on a pair before I gamble with US$500.0+ ....

I have EU 40 (US 8) size fairly narrow feet and find that OMER and SPORA footpockets of the right size are way too wide for me (even with 3mm socks) and the smaller size are ok width-wise but too short (my toes stick out of the opening in the footpocket).

Would love to try the new C4 foot pockets (mustangs?)

[immerlustig]

ghost, my 2c if i may:

1. your kick is asymetrical (relative to your body position)

your propulsion vector is not in line with your direction of travel (your body's centre line), meaning you kick behind your body instead of symmetrically below and above (ie down and up-kick). you can see that your down-kick is only going as low as your body's centerline, and your up-kick is well behind your body. in this way your kicks actually propel you at a slightly downwards directed angle rather than straight forward.

weight yourself neutral and adjust body position and you will find kicking to become more relaxed and symmetrical.

if you weight yourself neutrally buoyant (neckweight) you would have less of a problem with that since you don't need to kick yourself "down" to avoid floating to the surface.

also, your arms overhead position shows somewhat limited shoulder flexibility. not being able to keep the arms overhead AND stremalined in a relaxed manner leads to a compensation whereby the lower back is arched as you can see in the movie. this in turn makes kicking symetrically more difficult

your head position is slightly overextended. if you keep your arms at the side and drop the chin some more you wil have a less arched lower back leading to a more relaxed and symmetrical kick.

2. your kicks are shallow and fast

as has been mentioned. try slower and wider kicks without too much knee bend. you will have better fin control as well as less turbulence and drag. make sure your kick is symetrical and that you use the up-kick to counter the down-kick.

changing kicking style will certainly feel different as muscle effort is shifted to other groups and it will take a while to familiarize yourself with the new variation. don't take that initial impression as a sign of "inefficiency". remember, that your current style is something you are very accustomed to over many years of experience.

one thing that helps is to film yourself on ascent as this is usually the most naturally relaxed, balanced and symmetrical body position. compare your kick and body position on ascent with your descent and dynamic. ideally there shouldn't be any difference in form.

3. some thoughts on arms-overhead

drag increases exponentionally with speed. swimming with arms at the side will allow better upper body relaxation (o2 conservation). if you swim rather slowly anyways the o2 saving will be more beneficial than the extra little bit of streamlining as you don't disturb the water much anyways. if you sprint, on the other hand, you want to be as streamlined as possible, but it will cost you a lot of o2 to maintain a tight and streamlined body position.

seeing that you primarily spear you'll probably look for better dive times. extra relaxation in that case will probably be more beneficial for you.

4. what fin?

about your fin question, i'd always go for something softer rather than something harder. softer fins allow much better movement control with the benefit of great output from better technique. also, you'll be more relaxed in the upper body which gives you better o2 conservation and divetimes. hard fins are probably more for sprinters and real men

i'm primarily diving with bi-fins. even though i have c4 80's i usually use some old cressi gara ld's (the soft ones) as they are just fine. comfortable, reliable, care free, cheap and definitely good enough for easy, repetitive dives in the 20m range.

hope that made some sense

thoughts anyone?

roland

[GHOSTS]

thanks roland for your info really appreciate it , i will follow your steps over the next couple of weeks and i will let you know how its improving ,it makes sense know on what you are saying, cheers rick