Stop shivering and get cold! (especially for Naiad)

[efattah]

My big 'secret' lately for cold water diving is L-Carnitine, with Hydroxycitrate and Pyruvate. Taking this 3-punch combo turns your entire liver into 'activated brown fat' which can generate huge amounts of heat.

Taken in sufficient dosage at the right time, these supplements allow me to dive as much as THREE TIMES LONGER than without them, in cold water. The heat generation does consume a bit of O2, and I lose about 5-10 seconds off each dive in terms of performance, but I am so unbelievably warm that it feels like summer diving, even in 8C water.

I attached a research paper on this combo of supplements. L-Carnitine is found naturally in red meat, hydroxycitrate comes from a herb called Garcinia Cambogia, and Pyruvate is a natural metabolite in the krebs cycle.

EDIT: I would add that I have made a personal modification to the protocol in the research paper. I add about 15-20g of glycerol added to a sports drink, with citric acid, and 1 or 2 shots of 20ml MCT oil, with plenty of flax oil the days before diving. I have also experimented with the thermogenic supplement 'MM4' used by weight loss fanatics.

[harbour seal]

eric,

[in my best mr. burns voice] - Excellent!

the added benefits to cold water tolerance sounds very promising indeed. i am rather excited by this new discovery.

after the sucess i had with the MTC oil i have been reading about various thermogenic foods and thought HCA (Hydroxycitric acid) looked promising. i am glad to hear you have found benefit with it's use. it is currently being touted as a thermogenic herb and included in many weight-loss/body building formulas.

as far as the other supplements you mentioned goes, did you buy them separately or is there a specific formulation that contains them all? looking on iherb there are a ton of different options especially for L-Carnitine. please recommend what specific sources you used.

i have been wondering about thyroxine and utilizing this for increasing thermogenisis. in the days before a dive this hormone could be produced by extended exposure to cold water as it has a half-life of 1 week in the blood stream. it does help explain the added tolerance experienced over time after repeated diving days (provided accompanied by healthy/rich diet). i am have no doubt you experimented with this, what has been your experience? obviously, this route is a bit more masochistic than the herbal one.

anyway i am off to read the article, which look great by the way. thanks again for sharing your thoughts/findings.

cheers,
sean

[naiad]

Originally Posted by apneaboy

The biggest thing for me is looking after yourself on the way to the dive site (temperature of the car, what you have eaten), and at the dive site before you get in (wooley hats, lots of layers and stay out of the wind). Some days i forget all the little tricks, especially at the beginning of winter and i'm cold before i start but if you consider everything you can be ready for the cold.

Same with me. If I can get really warm before and after, the cold is a lot less bad.

[Fondueset]

Well, this morning the ground was covered with snow - that means only one thing; Time to go Diving! (of course, pretty much everything means that). Interesting stuff Eric - We're coming up on the cold season here and I've already noticed I get cold much faster now that my times are better. A smoothskin suit is a huge help in cold air but with the water now around 11c I've only been good for 1.5-2 hours if the dives are just up and down with stationary waiting for photo ops on the bottom.
Do you think there is any long-term negative impact on the liver from this regime?

[harbour seal]

a few more thermogenic herbs/plants:

Coleus Forskohlii
Citrus aurantium (or other bitter orange)
ginger
capsicum
green tea extract (polyphenols and caffeine)
caffeine

and other stimulants such as:
ephedra
kola nut extract
gotu Kola Powder (root)
guarana extract


also i noticed that many of the so-called thermogenic diet supplement formulations contain various types of vitamin B.

i am wondering about the effectiveness of both the stimulants and vit B for cold water freediving purposes? are these best avoided or potentially useful along side the other thermogenic foods?

here are a couple of the formulations i found containing most of the ingredients from the top list but with less stimulants (eg. not large amounts of caffeine/ephedra). note, the mm4 that eric mentioned previously has been discontinued, which is why i am looking at other options.

Bodybuilding.com - SciFit Thermal Cuts EF - Professional Formula! On sale now!
Diet Support with ForsLean, 120 VCaps
System-Six Ripped Man with Xenedrol, 130 Liquid Gel Caps
Meta-Burn EF, 120 Veggie Caps

as a side note, i was reading that bodybuilders previously used a combination of substances calle the ECA stack (ephedra, caffeine, aspirin) as a stimulant for weight loss. beware using aspirin prior to diving as i have read that it can be a risk factor in lung squeeze (sebastien murat and others have posted about this problem).

cheers,
sean

[land shark]

Intesting stuff Eric, thanks' Last spring I was bound and determined to get ripped for the summer unfortunatly fat prevailed. For a small period of time I was doing hydroxycut l-carintine and l-arginine along with copius amounts of anti-oxidents. This fall the pool where I do my laps in the morning had trouble regulating their heat again so many mornings the water was a cooler than normal. To stop the shivering, I followed advice from my DB friends and pruged before my laps. Needless to say it stopped my shivers and my laps proceeded nicely. The one thing that I noticed was that I was doing a lot more 6 strokes to the breath than the usual 3 per breathe I used to do. (enjoying it to I might add) And now you have me thinking that it may be the supplements and all this time I though I was making great strides at getting fitter?

[efattah]

In the spirit of the thread, I recorded my program more effectively. The morning of diving:

1.5g Garcinia Cambogia (yielding 900mg hydroxycitrate)
1.0g L-Carnitine Tartarate (yielding 670mg L-Carnitine)
5.5g Calcium Pyruvate (yielding about 4.4g Pyruvate)
8.0g Citric acid
40g Glycerol
all mixed with some orange juice and water

Plus,
2 capsules MM4 (containing Forskolin, Bergerin, Gingerols and Synephrine)
20ml Medium Chain Triglyceride oil
20ml Udo's oil

I tested it again this weekend with phenomenal results. Normally I only manage about 9-10 dives in 9C water. Yesterday I did 37 dives, and I was still warm -- but my feet were cold. Normally I could just warm my feet up with hot water, but my hot water bottle got blown away in a typhoon. But, most importantly, I feel so warm that I ENJOY my dives more.

However, the result of this is something I can't begin to fathom. Normally, my dives keep improving until I get cold. With this protocol, since I never seem to get cold at all, my dives keep improving, and the dive reflex gets stronger and stronger and stronger (at least with my style of FRC dives with occasional full exhale dives). After 35 dives, my arms and legs were so vasoconstricted that doing a few no-fins dives, it was as if my arms and legs were totally disconnected from my core circulation. With this information, even if the thermogenics cause a slight increase in basal metabolism, they could ultimately lead to a longer dive. With the thermogenics, my first 10 dives are shorter than without the thermogenics. But usually after 10 dives I am cold and shivering. Now, by dive #20 my dives are LONGER than without the thermogenics, and by dive #30 they are MUCH longer.

Interestingly, the thermogenic effect of the supplements really only kicks in once I get a bit cool or chilled. In other words, when getting into the water, I don't feel any warmer than usual. But once I get into the water, and get a bit cool, suddenly I feel my insides generating heat, and I never seem to get cold at all. It 'kicks in' when you need it most.

[adax]

Going back to what someone has mentioned here already, I think it is possible to stop the shivering by relaxation or focus or however I should call it. I can do it in a cold pool, I mean stop the shivering just for a few seconds by focusing & visualising ("I am not cold, I don't need to shiver"), but I strongly believe with training it is possible to delay it much longer (similar to delaying contractions by relaxation).

I also believe the mechanism is very similar to what seals do, with the only difference that for them it is a reflex. Humans have to "switch off" their thinking to achieve it. This is the hard part and one of the reasons it will never be 100% effective for us.

[harbour seal]

eric,

wow, thank-you for sharing your protocol. the results are compelling to say the least. i find your observations regarding the dive response very interesting as well. i am so excited at the prospect of added cold water tolerance i will have to conduct experiments of my own over the winter.

i would love to hear physiological hypotheses for these various results and observations as many questions come to mind. for example, given the described "extreme vasoconstricton", how did your hands not freeze? is this similar to how seal's limbs stay warm? additionally, how is a more pronounced dive response happening in conjunction with the increased basal metabolism caused by the various supplements (many of which have strong stimulating effects on the system)?

this may shed new light on the mechanisms of the dive response, given your findings hold true and this protocol results in a stronger effect. for example, an emphasis on slowing the metabolism pre-dive may be less important than other factors. anyway cue eric, seb murat, or other physiology experts to provide some insight.

this is not my area of expertise but i am interested in finding other studies regarding so-called hepatic thermogenesis and related subject matter; however, perhaps because of the novelty of the approach, there seems to be somewhat of a dirth of studies.

the following links are not meant to be exhaustive on the subject, so if you find other interesting ones please share and post links.


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tungstate

a number of recent studies report the effectiveness of a substance called tungstate as a thermogenic agent. the findings indicate this substance may be well suited to our purposes when it becomes available. i also found a patent application so expect tungstate supplements to be hitting the market sooner rather than later.

Tungstate decreases weight gain and adiposity in obese rats through increased thermogenesis and lipid oxidation.
full version http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/rap...005-0385v1.pdf

Target identification of the novel antiobesity agent tungstate in adipose tissue from obese rats.
Integration of DIGE and bioinformatics analyses re...[Mol Cell Proteomics. 2007] - PubMed Result
...there are other tungstate articles available as well...


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the following article is from the same author in the paper eric posted above (M.F. McCarty), who is focused on what he describes as the "hepatothermic therapy of obesity". similarly, it is another hypotheses paper so no new experimental data is presented but it does discuss glucomannan as potentially beneficial in optimizing the liver's capacity for fat oxidation. glucomannan happens to be the primary component of shirataki noodles, which are perhaps useful additions to eric's afformentioned pre-dive thermogenic supplement regime.

Glucomannan minimizes the postprandial insulin sur...[Med Hypotheses. 2002] - PubMed Result

Shirataki noodles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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this abstract provides a reasonably overview of some thermogenic nutrients and associated physiological processes:

Hepatothermic therapy of obesity: rationale and an inventory of resources.
McCarty MF.
Med Hypotheses. 2001 Sep;57(3):324-36.
Pantox Laboratories, San Diego, California 92109, USA.


Hepatothermic therapy (HT) of obesity is rooted in the observation that the liver has substantial capacities for both fatty acid oxidation and for thermogenesis. When hepatic fatty acid oxidation is optimized, the newly available free energy may be able to drive hepatic thermogenesis, such that respiratory quotient declines while basal metabolic rate increases, a circumstance evidently favorable for fat loss. Effective implementation of HT may require activation of carnitine palmitoyl transferase-1 (rate-limiting for fatty acid beta-oxidation), an increase in mitochondrial oxaloacetate production (required for optimal Krebs cycle activity), and up-regulation of hepatic thermogenic pathways. The possible utility of various natural agents and drugs for achieving these objectives is discussed. Potential components of HT regimens include EPA-rich fish oil, sesamin, hydroxycitrate, pantethine, L-carnitine, pyruvate, aspartate, chromium, coenzyme Q10, green tea polyphenols, conjugated linoleic acids, DHEA derivatives, cilostazol, diazoxide, and fibrate drugs. Aerobic exercise training and very-low-fat, low-glycemic-index, high-protein or vegan food choices may help to establish the hormonal environment conducive to effective HT. High-dose biotin and/or metformin may help to prevent an excessive increase in hepatic glucose output. Since many of the agents contemplated as components of HT regimens are nutritional or food-derived compounds likely to be health protective, HT is envisioned as an on-going lifestyle rather than as a temporary 'quick fix'. Initial clinical efforts to evaluate the potential of HT are now in progress. Copyright 2001 Harcourt Publishers Ltd.


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Bodybuilding.com - Metabolic Diet LipoFlush - Diet Solutions! On sale now!

for interest sake only, this is the product that McCarty created and currently the only one i am aware that contains all three of hydroxycitrate, L-carnitine, and pyruvate. it is comparitavely expensive but has most of the thermogenic supplements described above in one source (plus others). using this pre-mixed version might however, prove confounding for our purposes given the differing nutrient profile and additional ingredients compared to eric's approach (and McCarty's protocol used in the original informal pilot study).

cheers and may you always be warm in a sea of cold ,

sean

[Fondueset]

Thanks Eric,

If I can round all that stuff up I will be working with it this winter down to 3 or 4c. I typically do two dives a week all winter.

How often are you diving with this protocol? How do you feel afterwards?

[m2b]

Eric,

In regular medicine it can take, at times, several days to several weeks of taking the medicine for a particular treatment to kick in and start giving the effects that are desired. How long did it take you to start noticing the beneficial effects of the supplements?

Ryan

[efattah]

For me, the results of these supplements take effect within an hour or so, and work for almost 8 hours. It seems to be a one-shot dose effect, with no daily regimen required.

By the way, I got my stuff online at Beyond-A-Century:
Beyond A Century, Performance Nutritional Products

Negative pressure dives have often been used to stimulate the dive reflex & blood shift. However, most divers make the mistake of trying to start a dive session with a negative pressure dive, which is very dangerous. Instead, I find that my capacity for negative dives increases very gradually through the dive session. Especially because the FRC dives I do 'squeeze' my chest on every dive. After a few warm up FRC dives, followed by a few 30m+ FRC dives, if I try a negative dive, I might make 12m when I reach the discomfort point. Then, by gradually doing one negative after another of slowly increasing depth, I can eventually get as deep as 30m. Unfortunately, this process takes a huge number of dives, and even in summer I usually get cold before I can get that deep. However, if I can manage a negative to at least 20m, then all FRC dives afterwards are ENORMOUS in length & capacity.

So, the thermogenic program could allow huge dives by allowing the diver to stay in the water long enough to gradually stimulate the blood shift through ever increasing empty lung dives. WARNING !!!! Please do not try negative pressure or partial lung dives without taking a course and having an expert monitor your progress, or you could suffer HUGE injury. (!!!) Plus, it is extremely dangerous to do alone!!! Further, some people's physiology just doesn't really allow those kinds of dives at all, no matter what they do.

One might argue that in warm water, you can stay in as long as you like and do as many negatives as you want. True, but the cold is actually the secret, since the cold creates a much bigger vasoconstriction, which can in part potentiate the negatives themselves. Thus in my opinion, the greatest blood shift and dive reflex can only be reached in cold water.

I would comment that I experimented with this thermogenic protocol as early as 2003. That was when I managed the 'mystical' day of 18 minutes in 8C water with no wetsuit and no shivering. I didn't shiver until after I got out. I felt warm the whole time in the water, it was really cool. However I did not fully realize how much the thermogenics had to do with my cold resistance on that day.

[laminar]

I thought I'd mention that Eric's own diving habits are a good context for measuring the effect of thermogenics. When he says he only doesn 9-10 dives per winter session without thermogenics, that's a lot of diving. Few people that I know (I can count them on one thumb) dive FRC between 30-40m in the winter. The degree of insulation that a wetsuit provides at those depths is negligible and so you really depend on internal heat generation. I'd say his winter diving habits are the reason that he consistently reaches deep recreational depths all year long. So to see an almost four fold increase in dives is incredible.

I think that you'd want to remember that Eric's dosages are individual and may not suit your body and metabolism. He's also very experienced at noting the effects of things on his physiology.

Just my two cents from experience.

[Fondueset]

Important caveats, pete. I wish I could spend some time diving with you guys.

I had sort of a frustrating dive today due to this very issue. Trying to get good photos of the lake trout I started getting really cold after just a few long dives. I'm definitely diving differently than previous years - longer breathe-ups, longer bottom times and less movement overall - this will change as the season moves on but I am feeling very motivated to work with this protocol.

visibility was amazing today - I watched a very happy carp grazing on the bottom from about 60 feet away. The Trout were cooperative but I was shivering by the time I got into the really clear water and my times dropped right off.

Here's the best I managed today.

[laminar]

God, Chris, that is gorgeous!