Safety Training for Overhead Environments

[scott]

Snorklebum,

Christopher has answered quite eloquently and I so I defer to his response.

Scott

[Erik]

I've freedived under ice, and am going to do it again this winter, probably in November and December. I posted a couple of stories in the past. It's quite exciting. I found that throwong a weighted line in first is a good idea, so that you can move around away from the hole, but still be able to see your way out. Ice is invisible at the bottom 8 cm, and also indistinguishable from the hole if the ice is clear. I did it in a 5mm suit, the dives were around a minute to a minute and a half, with long breathe-ups. Cold definitely affects the duration. Cold water on your face is good for extending dives, but not when the rest of your body is cold. Come on snorklebum, I think you're getting soft down there in freedive paradise!
Cheers,
Erik Y. Brrrrr

[cjborgert]

Erik,

Why do you do this? Is it for what you see below the ice? Do you spearfish under the ice? I would hope there are seals, or other fish - probably moving v e r r r r r r y s l o w w w w w l y at that temperature - that you go to see or hunt. Please don't tell us you do this just to stay in fdiving shape over the winter! -Or is it one of those things you have to try just because it is so extreme?

I think you could get Snorkelbum to join you if you told him there are ice tunnels for him to crawl into.

[Erik]

[quote]Originally posted by cjborgert
[b]Erik,

Why do you do this

Haha! Shall I quote a certain famous mountain climber?
You might have noticed that I am very passionate about freediving....enough to go out on a 15F day and get under the ice at one of the lakes around here. I am 1200 km from the sea, and I take what I can get. I absolutely HATE swimmimg pools, but I go in them too, especially in the winter, when it's 25 or 30 below zero outside.
I am very envious of you guys down in Florida diving the springs. In the winter we usually have the best vis in the lakes, because there is no weather to affect them, so it's worth doing, for me. The only problem, as I wrote in a post earlier this year, is taking off the suit and looking between your legs. I don't care if you're Dirk Diggler, you will not be happy for a while!
Cheers,
Erik Y.

[cjborgert]

Erik my friend,

"Passionate" is not the word I would use, but my hat (or rather, my 7mm hood and double-lined fleece underhood) is off to you. Good luck.

[P.S. to the forum: We need to pitch in for a plane ticket to get this guy to warm water this winter! I'm worried about him!]

[snorklebum]

Christopher, the enviroment you describe sounds incredible and beautiful. I've had dreams of swimming up into the air and would love to experience that kind of transparency in the water.
And it sounds scary enough to be interesting. Damn. I'm going to have to put Florida on my "figure out how to get there" list.
Do any of you take pictures?

[cjborgert]

I'm no photographer, but today we bought a disposable "waterproof to 45 feet" camera and took some shots. I'll try to scan them and post if they are worth viewing.

There are several websites with good pictures. One site I just found has a couple of good shots of the spring I dove today (Ginnie Springs / Devil's complex): <http://www.mountaindiver.com/dive07.html>. In fact, that website shows a photograph taken from inside the cavern looking back at some scubadubbas at the cavern entrance - I took a photo from that exact spot today with the disposable. We'll see who's the better photographer (ha - I'd go to the website if I were you).

The opening looks small in that photo, but two divers can easily swim between those rocks side-by-side. We did it several times today. The photographer was obviously using a strong light, because the rocks in the immediate foreground are not illuminated from the back side of the cavern, and the light coming through the entrance does not strike the back side of the rocks.

Notice in the bottom of the picture there is a rope line running straight toward the cavern entrance. That rope is anchored just in front of the photographer and extends behind the photographer to the back wall of the cavern, which slopes down behind him. I'm not sure how far back that wall is, but I made it there easily today - I would guess it to be about 30-40 feet from the cavern entrance, which is at a depth of only about 12 feet . . . so the trip from the surface down into the cavern to the back wall is only about 50 feet or so. The distance and depth per se are no challenge, but the current is signficant, and you need a light to see where you are going as you head into the cavern. Coming back out, you can just head for the light coming through the entrance, but you still have to make sure you don't bonk your head.

Scott dives these caverns also - maybe he has taken photos???

Scott - have you been back to the grate at Ginne that prevents further penetration into the cave? We did not venture that far today, but next time, I'd like to look for it. I assume it is on the floor of the ballroom somewhere, probably right of where the rope is anchored on the wall?? One of the things that concerns me is light failure - I'm not sure one can see daylight from the entrance.

Also, Scott may want to share with us what he's learning as he dives dark water sinks. Now that must be eerie!!

[thin_air]

hey im new to the sport but what you are doing sounds great

in referance to the safety consernes you guys have would it not be a good idea to carry a self contained ascent bottle like a Spare air(http://www.spareair.com/index.html) be an excellent thing to carry

i think that the spare air original would be an excellent thing to have in an entaglement or other situation that requires you to stay under longer then expected

i know its what the scuba divers use and that it might take away from the original ''idea'' of freediving but i also think that it is a small price to pay considering the new direction this sport is going in

and also considering that the depths that fdivers are making the cave/cavern dive are in fairly sallow water no deeper then 140 feet a standard accent could be made at a rate no greater then 30 feet per minute

even the spair air twin is quite small and would only increase drag by a fraction

oh well theres my 2 cents

[cjborgert]

I think you've made a good suggestion and one we ought to look into. In fact, Scott and I were just talking about Spare air today at the end of our marathon spring dive day (Scott showed me a number of great places I'd never been). I don't believe spare air would be an intrusion on the freedive experience if it were never used in freediving . . i.e., it's only there to aid in a rescue, not to prolong a freedive. - And if a rescue is actually needed, who cares whether or not it is a freedive rescue or an air-assisted rescue.

One of the complexities is that we would have to be cave certified - not just open water scuba certified - to carry spare air in many of the places we dive. That's a lot of extra training in the use of equipment we would never use and to handle situations we would never encounter just to be able to carry an emergency bottle of spare air. So, one has to decide whether it is worth all the time and trouble. One way to solve that is to dive with friends who are already cave certified, but who have given it up for freediving . . . just have to make sure the certified guy does not need to be rescued!

I think you are right about it's potential usefulness in the event that an actual rescue is needed. Thanks for the idea and the input!

[snorklebum]

If there were ever a place that seems to call out for a Spare Air backup, I would think this would be it.
It's really unfortunate that they go through all that BS about certification in order to have a small tank of emergency air along with you. But I don't see how they could require cave certification...you go in and buy your air, where you take it is none of their business. Or has the whole NAUI thing gotten even more totalitarian than before?
One solution to Spare Air is a device that allows it to be filled from a big tank. So if anybody in your crowd can get a tank of air, you can fill from that tank without needed a letter from Mom.
I anticipate somebody pointing out that a backup tank could lead one to being too daring, and that their are legitimate concerns once you inhale compressed air. And they would be right.
But it would be such a good thing for this kind of diving.

[thin_air]

i dont really think that you need to be cave certified to dive with the spare air

i've seen ppl that only have there o/w cert. go into caverns with full scuba equipment

and by the way you dont have to be o/w cert. to rent a tank or buy gear for that matter i asked the shop and thats how it is
when i lived in the states i rented a tank before i was cert. for a school project and i was only in the 6th grade so...

also it is my humble opinion that all freedivers that dive in an aggressive recreational way should be o/w certified i think this not because that i think you learn any important techniques but more for the saftey info you learn on how to treat dcs and dci

you also learn a little about swb (well at least my instructor taught us about it) and some basic freediving stuff

oh well i dont think anybody will get mad at you for not being cavern certified and using a spare air

vince

[cjborgert]

You're probably right, Vince, they don't really get mad at you. It's usually the person who is using the scuba gear in a cavern without cavern certification who gets angy . . . . right after his equipment is confiscated and he is banned from the site.

I don't think freedivers want to go that route. If you want to use spare air in a cavern, you have to get the C card; if you want to use spare and a light, you have to get the full C (cave) card.

Personally, I think a light is safety equipment for a freediver because it helps him keep from bonking his head on rocks, especially on the way out of a cavern because the backsides of the rocks are not illuminated by the daylight coming through the entrance. A cavern-certified scuba diver can take his time and feel his way out around dark rocks, but a freediver doesn't have all day. A light is also useful to see cave-diver's lines before entanglement occurs. So for me, it would require full cave certification to carry spare air because I also want the safety of a light.

Also, I wouldn't agree about scuba certification courses being of much use for freedivers. That's like going to truck driving school to become a race driver . . . sure, there's some cross-over, but too little to make it a productive use of time and money. We need more courses specifically for freedivers. Unfortunately, the scuba instructors I've spoken with have no interest, and really very little knowledge about freediving. You have to understand that their economics depend on creating customers who will buy a BCD, regulator, etc., etc. in addition to the price of the course. I can't blame them . . . it simply isn't their bag.

[Erik]

I would like to point out that the risk of DCS to a freediver is so remote as to be ignored. If you are also scubadiving, then that's another issue, which you probably wouldn't get taught on a scuba course anyway. If you do 100 dives to 20 metres a day, then it might be an issue. If you dive to 80 metres 10 times in a day, it might be an issue. Otherwise, I don't think scuba instruction is useful to someone who wants to freedive.
An example is Laminar(Pete). He has never breathed from a regulator and doesn't even want to, but he is a great freediver who knows more about human freediving physiology than any scuba instructor I know who doesn't freedive.
Cheers,
Erik Y.

[thin_air]

what i meant which i forgot to say is that for the sake saftey the freediver should be aware of these (dci and dcs) because they often participate in the same areas as a scuba divers and that knowing about it could help if a scuba diver becouse bent or ill

-cjborgert, you bring up a point i hadnt thought of, your right about the use or spare air and a light that would be a problem i dont know to what extent the rules would apply

but if a product was made for the sake of the safety of freedivers in an overhead environment then it might only have to come to the point of taking a short (mabey an hour long) course on the saftey and such of freediving in general and freediving in an overhead environment... then that would allow the diver to carry a spare air and a light without needing a full certification

[scott]

thin_air,

Thanks for the comments about spare air. Concidental that Chris (cjborgert) and I were discussung it just yesterday. I do agree with Chris that it is probably too much of a pain to get the necessary certification to (legally) take the spare air in the Florida caves that we dive in. Perhaps it could be used in the remote springs where enforcement is minimal/non-existent (as the intent is to use the spare air as a safety device, I would not feel like too much of a law breaker). I assume a non-certified person can buy the spare air but that a certified one would have to get it filled (?).
I would be willing to buy one and think it may be a good idea.

On a personal note, I got to meet and dive with Chris (who I met through this forum) yesterday. I started at 7:00 AM and got home around midnight - what a great day. I'm embarassed to say (for safety reasons, see other forums), that this was the first dive I ever freedove with a buddy. Chris, you were an animal (and then to even go home after the full day and post some forum messages!). Thanks for meeting me - I think our sons had a great time as well. We'll have to do it again when I get my camera back as I think some shots in the mazes of Cow Springs and deep into Little River would be great keepsakes.

Scott