Kicking / flippers

[SASpearo]

As I was in the pool last night, I got to wondering about different kicking techniques, and what seems to work for whom ... I'll try and post all the combinations that I can think of.

DOH! Forgot Mono ...

Thank goodness for editing functionality ...

[Jay Styron]

Come on, I haven't worn FLIPPERS since I was in the kiddie pool. Lets say fins. Just kidding. I modify my style to match the situation. Take care.
Jay

[fjohnson]

Using Longfins:
swimming at surface - either frogkick or flutter on back
underwater horizontal - dolphin kick
going down - flutter kick
coming up - flutter kick or dolphin
going for speed, dolphin kick
'course, until this busted eardrum heals there's no worry about which kick to use.....
Fred

[Erik]

With the bi-fins, I have been experimenting with the dophin kick, but usually during fun diving, either at the surface, or when I'm cruising at depth, I mostly use a frog-kick that is similar to the kick I used to use on scuba inside shipwrecks. It doesn't take much effort, and it's very efficient. Getting down and up is the scissor or doplhin kick.
I have a monofin from Russia that I bought last year, but it is extremely stiff for sprinting, and is not much use for a gentle kick. The blade would not flex, and I always ended up going sideways in horizontal swimming, or would spin on descent in a deep pool.
Yesterday, moved by the engineering genius of Anderson and Sven, I decided that I would cut out a rounded triangle of material from the back-middle of the fin. It looks more like a whale tail now. I took it to the pool and it worked MUCH better. Now I just need to get some decent footpockets for it.
Cheers,
Erik Y.

[thin_air]

for underwater hockey (uwh, the only thing i am doing now that is water related) i usually use a shorter fin (scuba) for more maneouverability(sp)
as for my kicking style,
on the surface i use a flutter just to get my speed up (easier to speed up and i have all the O2 i could want)
once underwater i use dolphin because it is more efficient (for me)
if i have to stop however i use the flutter to speed up again
if i have to do a tight turn i use a full body flutter (hard to explain)
i also use my hand on the pool bottom if i need an extra burst of speed, to score or intercept

good idea for a thread

[icarus pacific]

Call me unappreciative or whatever, but the very nature of moving through a medium that has it's own dynamics, water, with your personal attendant nuances, makes this a fairly screwy question. Even in the pool, by yourself, you'll undoubtably have to adjust, compensate, switch and combine, so as to make a single entry in a poll meaningless. Jay's correct

sven

[SASpearo]

The question might be a bit screwy.

I was just interested to know what type of kick / fins people use mainly - especially when freediving. I also adjust tech for different situations, but dolphin kick with longblades when going for cw / dyn apnea.

And as all things in life, this is not definitive - just a curious question.

Regards,
Riaan C

BTW: Lame Flame

[fjohnson]

Erik,
You mention the scissor kick as your preferred kick to get down and up (or the dolphin), I've never tryed the scissor kick with long blades and just wondering if we're talking about the same kick here... as I understand the scissor kick it's a sidestroke kick, correct? And this works for you?

Fred

[Erik]

Hey Fred....to me, the scissor kick is the regular old flutter-kick. My terminology might be wrong, sorry. It's stronger and with a wider arc at the surface, then the range of the strokes quickly diminishes as bouyancy decreases. I must say that I think the monofin is the way to go in performance diving, and that's my next goal....to be able to use one proplerly.
Cheers,
Erik Y.

[freediver48]

Hi Fred,

I used to teach swimming as well as life guarding and as I recall your terminology is correct. Kick wise I like to mix it up. I use a lot of flutter kicks and dolphin kicks, but in a long haul situation (miles) I end up using a scissor kick and a side stroke. I have cooled my jets on the horizontal dolphin, because at high speeds
my hood seal blow out and in 43F water that means big head pain. I usually dive with flutter kicks and surface with dolphin kicks, but as Sven mentioned, I bet we all constantly modify what we do to contexual our behavior. In terms of sneaking up on fish I love to sink to them with no kick, gliding, it feels great, but not always possible.

my 2Cs,

Fd48

[Ward2]

It is my understanding that the flutter kick is characterized by an alternating movement of the legs at the knees with minimum movement of the thighs (i.e., the kick is powered by the thighs). By way of comparison, the scissor kick is characterized by an alternating movement at the hips with the legs kept fairly straight (i.e., the kick is powered by the hips).

The bicycle kick and its variations are characterized by an alternating movement of the legs at the hips and knees, creating a 120-90 degree angle by raising the heel towards the buttocks while simultaneously straightening the other leg in a circular fashion (as the name implies). I've read articles on freediving that use this technique as the primary/basic method of propulsion.

In practice I morph all three kicks into one technique, occasionally using the dolphin kick on ascents. That is, I combine elements of all three, emphasizing different aspects at different times to achieve a desired result; a high frequency/low amplitude flutter emphasis for speed, a low frequency/medium amplitude mix for relaxed descents, etc. I don't consciously think about it though, it happens naturally.

I also use a 'sculling' technique (I don't know if it has a proper name) for loitering maneuverability/propulsion and occasionally on ascents when I become positively buoyant. It is characterized by a slow relaxed lateral movement at the hips with the legs kept 'straight', like a jumping jack. The toes are pointed in on the outstroke and out on the instroke. This technique requires little energy and fatigues different muscles than those used for main propulsion. I've been doing this since I began diving, I guess it's just a quirk of my personality...

Does anyone else do this?

P.S. this is my first post, please be gentle!

Ward F. Ward

[Erik]

Originally posted by Ward2
:P.S. this is my first post, please be gentle!

Ward F. Ward

Nice to meet you Ward....Ward...err...ok. Ward.
You wont find a gentler bunch on the net I believe -even Sven the Viking doesn't loot and pillage anymore .
Your kick sounds unusual, but hey, whatever works, works!
I DO use the bicycle kick on the surface, with stiffer fins sometimes. It is really efficient, despite what we are taught in Open Water One.
Tell us about Alaska diving....maybe you could hook up with Peter Scott sometime. He could use a buddy up there in the Yukon.
Cheers,
Erik Y.

[ahinalu]

OK, now with all these questions about which kick is which I am confused.

I assumed ( there's that word my teachers always warned me about ) that the sciccors kick was what you use when doing freestyle mosly hips slight bend at knees. And I thought that a flutter kick used only you calfs.

As with most of you I vary kicks. I start a deep dive using sciccors (for power + speed) then as I get neutral/negative I just use my calfs. This alows me to not use any muscles except the calfs and feet (relatively small?) muscles. I've found that when spearing i make less noise (visual and audial).

I've heard a lot of people talk about a dolphin for power but I can't seem to do it without expending vast ampounts of energy. It's not the "working" muscles that are using the energy, it's the muscles I use to keep the air "in" (diaphram, the little muscles between the ribs, etc). I've never had need to have such a "burst" in daily diving (only been chased by one big shark {mako} I don't think I could out race a puffer fish if it was trying to get away from me.

Am I doing something wrong, or am I missing something? I am FAR from an expert in diving technique.

I just love this site Now my wife knows that I'm not alone in my obsession

Aloha, Chris

[ahinalu]

OK, now with all these questions about which kick is which I am confused.

I assumed ( there's that word my teachers always warned me about ) that the siccors kick was what you use when doing freestyle mosly hips slight bend at knees. I also thought that a flutter kick used only you calfs.

As with most of you I vary kicks. I start a deep dive using siccors (for power + speed) then as I get neutral/negative I just use my calfs. This alows me to not use any muscles except the calfs and feet (relatively small?) muscles. I've found that when spearing i make less noise (visual and audial).

I've heard a lot of people talk about a dolphin for power but I can't seem to do it without expending vast ampounts of energy. It's not the "working" muscles that are using the energy, it's the muscles I use to keep the air "in" (diaphram, the little muscles between the ribs, etc). I've never had need to have such a "burst" in daily diving (only been chased by one big shark {mako} I don't think I could out race a puffer fish if it was trying to get away from me.

Am I doing something wrong, or am I missing something? I am FAR from an expert in diving technique.

I just love this site Now my wife knows that I'm not alone in my obsession

Aloha, Chris

[Ward2]

Tell us about Alaska diving....maybe you could hook up with Peter Scott sometime. He could use a buddy up there in the Yukon.

Well to begin with, freediving in Alaska is virtually non-existent; I've been freediving here since 1990 and I've yet to meet someone else who does - except those few [wearing wetsuits] who have dropped to -12m once after scuba diving. I do try to encourage others who have shown an interest though, but aside from the breath holding aspects, most just don't want to brave the cold water regularly. As you can imagine, many people think I'm crazy!

Alaska is as dangerous as it is beautiful, and sadly, plenty of people die here each year, usually commercial fisherman and recreational hunters/boaters (the commercial fishermans memorial is located in Juneau). So, conservative, well thought out planning is essential: limiting exposure times, diving conservatively, understanding EMS response capabilities and times, Informing others of your location and activities,etc. Safety first!

Now you can all smack me upside the head and call me a hippocrite, because I freedive solo. But, I can either dive solo or not at all, and I would rather dive. I know that solo diving is frowned upon, but even when I do dive with others I do not place the responsibility of my safety in others. I never push my limits and I have never had a problem. To paraphrase Sun Tzu: 'know your enemy, know yourself, and in all things you will be victorious'. I'm not advocating solo diving though, just responsible diving, but enough of that...

It is very beautiful here and the diving is best on the coast: That's where the bluewater is. Pelican, and Prince of Whales Island, to name a few, are alive in color and variety and Sitka is known for its abundance of rather large octopi. I used to participate in the Southeast Alaska Dive Fisheries -pinto abalone & sea cucumber, so I have been lucky enough to dive most of these spots. The inside waters are rather 'sparse' in flora, but the interaction with marine life is great. Harbor seals, sea lions, and many species of flat fish, all curious and friendly -at least in my experience. On the other hand, people have thrown rocks at me before, having mistaken me for a seal (you can imagine their surprise when turned around!).

In summer the plankton/phytoplankton blooms and generally visibility is reduced, especially in the 0-10 m range. The winter months are actually the best time to dive here; just remember my motto, 'Temperature is a state of mind, until your lips turn blue' -they don't call me Mr. Zen for nothing. Actually, I don't think about the cold at all; as in all things, there are barriers you have to get past to succeed.

I have been diving in a 5/6.5mm Cressi Super Comp wetsuit and it works perfectly (In fact, everything I dive with is Cressi-sub, I look like I'm sponsored by them... ). I haven't tried others, and it is a personal choice, but I feel that a 6.5mm suit is plenty of insulation for the temperature given the exposure times.

I remember the first time I dropped down to 10m and lay on the bottom, and waited...5...10...15 seconds and then all of sudden an armada of flatfish swam past me heading into deeper water, it was really cool. One just turned and stopped in front of me, and we just sat there looking at eachother until I had to ascend. Needless to say it hooked me and I've had many other experiences since. We do have some rather large fish here too. A number of years ago there was a woman in goup of divers, all biologists I believe, that were scuba diving on the DIPAC Hatchery (inspecting the intakes). The hatchery is located on Gastineau channel in shallow water (10-20m) just before the mud flats and the entire area is nothing but muck. When she descended to the bottom she landed on a halibut "large enough to swallow you", which lifted off the bottom and swam away. She said she would never dive again, but who knows.

I guess state of mind is really the key; freediving is a state of mind wherever you may dive.


I hope this piques your curiosity a little, I could probably just keep going on and on and on....

P.S. I've emailed Mr. Scott twice, but no response yet...

Ward F. Ward