Switching to anaerobic process

[fpernett]

I agree with Skindiver, and Eric explain very well the process, but there are something flying in my mind.
When we are doing apnea, the oxygen compsumtion is lower than in rest (at least in static apnea) but it has to be a little higher in dynamic or in the up-phase of constant. But we have arterial constriction, so the blood flow in the muscle is below normal. I think the muscle cell has to relly on local oxygen and substrates to generate energy. Thats why the blood Oxygen is less important than the cell oxygen (myoglobin). Due to the high ambient pressure we are hyperoxic at descent and bottom, so this part has to be aerobic. But in ascent we increase the metabolic demand of the cell, and as we ascent the Oxygen availabilty is lower, thats the moment when we need to generate energy in the anaerobic way. The CO2 production to the blood is lower than usual and also we can have reverse transfer in the lungs, thats why the CO2 in the first exhalation of a freediver is lower than expected, it remains in the cell.
I think we all have to train both aerobic and anaerobically. What is the best training? Freediving
Will other exercises be helpful?

[efattah]

My experience is that if you are ascending from a depth of around < 55m, the hyperoxic blood still flows into the muscle, and so your muscles consume a lot of O2 aerobically on the ascent. However, when ascending from 65m+, the blood shift is strong enough that despite super high O2 in the blood, very little blood gets into the muscles, and the beginning of the ascent is mainly anaerobic. When ascending from 80m+, blood flow to the legs is virtually cut off, resulting in leg fatigue very early on the ascent.

Of course, the actual depths will vary from person to person based on rib cage flexibility and magnitude of blood shift; my point is that the deeper you go, the more anaerobic the start of the ascent becomes.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[fpernett]

Yes, but you are a highly trained freediver. I think that the "anaerobic threshold" is different for every freediver. We have different muscle cell types and the compositions can vary widely. I think the kind of training can affect this too.
I made some cardio-pulmonary exercise test to a group of mountain climbers, that train under hypoxic conditions (they run up-hill at 4000 meters over sea level) 2-3 hours. And their anaerobic threshold was very early, and their exercise was around 120% of predicted VO2 Max.

[gerard]

but what I want to is neutralise the negative post-effects of lactic acid.

Regards, gerard.

[efattah]

In my experience, the best way to eliminate any negative effects of lactic acid after exercise is to do 30 minutes of slow cardio. Increased blood flow clears away waste products. I think the worst thing to do is to just stop the exercise and rest, leaving all the acid and wastes in the muscle.

Trevor Hutton used to do sets of 60m dives where he would swim for 5-7 minutes in between each dive to clear the acid, then breathe for 5 minutes, dive, swim, breathe, dive, etc., and this could be kept up forever because the waste products were cleared.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[zipy]

hi
Now this is a thread that deserves 5 stars!

thanks everyone!

Zipy

[Bill]

You mentioned something about this before, Eric. Since then, I've been doing an aerobic work out after my static practice. Repeat six minute statics, three minutes apart, sometimes give me a headache. The bike ride feels good.
Aloha
Bill

[gerard]

And I am quoting here the following researcher:

David C. LaPorte
Department of Biochemistry
University of Minnesota

"Another theory (which is getting a lot of support) focuses on the rate of lactate consumption rather then production. Lactic acid which is generated in a working muscle is being consumed in other tissues, such as the liver and other muscles. The level of lactic acid in the blood is effected by both the rates of production and consumption. As the working muscle works harder, it produces more lactic acid. This is balanced by the abilities of the other tissues to consume more lactic acid. However, when the rate of production of lactic acid is greater then the fastest rate at which other tissues can consume it, blood lactic acid goes up dramatically"

And I add here: eliminating vast amounts of lactic acid by a mere post cool-down period (light aerobic session) is not always effective, especially if the athlete (myself) has a significant muscular development.

Another solution (something I am considering) would be cutting down any extra anaerobic training (heavy resistance training) which significantly helps to achieve that state (muscle hypertrophy or its maintenance), and improving aerobic capacity since we know that high levels of lactate/hydrogen ions will be detrimental to performance, and one of the key reasons for endurance training is to enable the body to perform at a greater pace with a minimal amount of lactate. This can be done by long steady runs, which will develop the aerobic capacity by means of capillarisation (formation of more small blood vessels, therefore enhancing 02 transport to the muscles) and by creating greater efficiency in the heart and lungs. If the aerobic capacity is greater, it means there will be more oxygen available to the working muscles and this should delay the onset of lactic acid at a given work intensity.

Nothing new here, but I just wanted to clarify my point of view.

So I guess I must catch up with the old times.

BTW I started taking yesterday sodium phosphate right before training (1 gr) and it did wonders. No more bloody trigger points in my neck. I was afraid of taking sodium bicarbonate because I heard bad stuff about its use (nausea and vomits) apart from the comment you made yesterday, Eric.

Regards, gerard.

[efattah]

Personally, I don't want microcapillaries in my muscles; I don't want my legs to receive any blood or oxygen at all, because every molecule of O2 that my legs consume, is one less molecule of O2 for my brain.

Instead, my method is to increase the amount of ATP/CP/Myoglobin in the legs by various training methods, thus increasing the amount of stored energy in the muscle. Further, teaching the muscle to function at more acidic levels means more stored energy can be stolen from glycolysis as well.

They say there is enough anaerobic energy stored in a (well trained) muscle to perform 50 seconds of maximum muscular effort, without any O2 from blood.

During a 4 minute constant weight dive, I don't think there is 50 seconds of maximum effort (more like 150 seconds of 30% effort), so it should be possible to store enough energy in the legs to perform the whole dive without any blood flow to the legs.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[gerard]

Would you please tell me how the hell are you going to ascend with aerobically unfit legs? Anaerobically fit legs won't bring you up to the surface since we are talking about of the aerobic system primarily, not a short sprint perfomed in a different fluid which is air.

Regards, gerard.

[efattah]

When I did my deep dives in 2001, the whole ascent was anaerobic, virtually no blood was flowing into my legs.

Again, anaerobically trained legs have 50 seconds of maximum effort stored in them. A finswimmer can sprint 150m in 50 seconds of maximum effort. Remember Urchenko (sp?) did the record of 100m immersion in 31.XX seconds.

Each person can train whichever method he wants to, all we do is exchange opinions.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[Ben Gowland]

Gerard - it seems that you consider muscular development to be a more important factor in CW freediving than reducing 02 consumption?

Please tell us it isn't true.....

[gerard]

I am not here either to argue nor to challenge your views about training. Each to its own. I still believe that the ascent could be done mostly aerobically except the initial ascent (kick up for 5-10 m, and the last 15 metres). But I repeat again this is my theory, in practice I would probably sprint all the way up, just o get the hell out of there

Anyway we should close this discussion right now since it's not taking us anywhere productive.

Ben, I am not a muscle head mate. I train with weights for HEALTH reasons, and if I also get the goodies of it the better. It is helping me in freediving a lot.

Regards my friends, gerard.

[Skindiver]

Would you please tell me how the hell are you going to ascend with aerobically unfit legs? Anaerobically fit legs won't bring you up to the surface since we are talking about of the aerobic system primarily, not a short sprint perfomed in a different fluid which is air.

Gerard. I was learning much from this discussion. The tone of the above sounded the death knell for this discussion. No one here owes anyone an explanation on anything. The mooted positive potential of switching to anaerobic processes for ascent has been discussed in detail. To ask how the hell... particularly of one with houses full of experience is not only disrespectful but also redundant.
It is clearly evident that one can ascend aerobically. The purpose of this discussion was to explore the benefits of ascending positively intentionally anaerobically.

Aside from this, its not your place to end any discussion. Not even if you had started it. Once its tossed into the public domain you have no title or rights to it and where it goes.

Anyway we should close this discussion right now since it's not taking us anywhere productive.

It would be most appropriate for you to refrain from posting or viewing the thread any further if you felt it was of no further value to you.

The written word can be misleading in terms of tone. The tone of Bens message however is clearly indicated by the huge grinning icon he has attached.

Please tell us it isn't true.....

This is neither argumentative not challenging and should not have invoked a defensive response.

I too train with weights. If i'm going to utilise a anaerobic method of ascent then i want anaerobically strong legs. However to question the merits of aerobic fitness is again redundant even for the most uninitiated.

Skindiver.

[cjborgert]

OK, I think I've got it figured out now . . . it seems that I should do lots of sprinting toward the end of my hypoxic intervals, and then drink a big glass of red wine when I'm done with my training session (to make me feel better and to avoid taking too many capsules), and when I'm feeling particularly overtrained, take a week off and just drink the wine.

I can definitely see why this will avoid burn-out. I'm looking forward to training hard already.