Beyond 6:30 in static apnea

[Oligo]

Originally Posted by SEDATE

Oligo Comatose people ??/where they are living?/ i never heard it before!? /you mean escimo people???!! right?!

They are all around and they don't even know they are comatose.

[tylerz]

Originally Posted by Oligo

Talking about "alkaline" and "acidic" blood and body fluids is rather silly, as humans cannot easily survive blood pH outside the range of 6.9-7.9.

A 12.6% variance is generally considered significant. What information are you referring to that suggests it isn't?

Thus when you say that you have "alkaline" blood, you actually mean that you have managed to accumulate a lot of buffer capacity to buffer the effects of carbon dioxide on the pH of your blood.

Actually, that is not what I meant.

And so "acidic" blood really means low buffer capacity.

Acidic blood does not mean that. See acidosis, respiratory acidosis.

You present this as though you have made a compelling refute against referring to one's pH (acidic/alkaline), although you didn't present anything to validate your conclusion?

I am not sure what is silly about it, can you maybe elaborate and include references?

You can find articles all over the web and in medical publications that speak about pH variations in the human body. ex:
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edud...er/Buffer.html
http://www.naturalfoodsmerchandiser....trSite=NFMSite

<SNIPPET from second link>
However, the normal blood pH of 7.4 is outside the optimal buffering range; therefore, the addition of protons to the blood due to strenuous exercise may be too great for the buffer alone to effectively control the pH of the blood. When this happens, other organs must help control the amounts of CO2 and HCO3- in the blood. The lungs remove excess CO2 from the blood (helping to raise the pH via shifts in the equilibria...
<END>

Buffer capacity and pH are different things.

This is true, and previous references suggested that.

[perow1]

I agree, it is of very great importance to consider blood pH. The buffer systems and the mechanisms to regulate blood pH have developed because it is important for the survival of the organism.

The buffer capacity however is one major reason that we are able to hold our breath for a long time by keeping the blood pH stable in this stressful situation. To me it sounds reasonable that it is the buffer capacity that has to be increased to become a better apneist. (one of the reasons)

I find it interesting to speculate about the effects of raising pH before a breath hold. The better buffer capacity the better effect from a high pH since the scale is logarithmic and the buffer capacity may not be linear. If you get what i mean. Just speculating though.

[Oligo]

I'm saying that if you are breathing normally and not exercising strenuously, your blood pH is always 7.4, because it is vital to your survival. The mammalian body is crazy about keeping that pH just correct. Nothing you do (diet, warmups, whatever) can change that. What you are actually modulating with your warmups and such, is buffer capacity.

If you do a breathe up however, you get alkalosis, which goes away as soon as you start breathing normally. During a static, you get acidosis, which disappears when you start breathing again.

If you do a breathe up before a static, you start with an alkalosis, which soon turns into an acidosis. The speed of this turnaround is mainly dependant of the buffer capacity of blood.

[tylerz]

Here is an excellent publication on body pH:
http://www.usyd.edu.au/su/anaes/lect...b/control.html

"pH of the plasma (i.e. pH of the plasma of whole blood = conventional "blood" pH) is controlled at 7.4 (7.35 - 7.45). <snip> Changes in plasma pH reflect pH changes in other compartments."

Originally Posted by Oligo

I'm saying that if you are breathing normally and not exercising strenuously, your blood pH is always 7.4, because it is vital to your survival.

Previously, you stated blood and body fluid, however here you are only referring to blood. The blood may be ~7.4 but other tissue and fluid will have differences in pH. As quoted below valid ranges are 4.6-8 in pH tests of urine.

Quote from:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/003583.htm
"The pH in blood is maintained within the narrow range of 7.35 to 7.45. <snip>Long-term correction of blood pH requires the kidneys to excrete the acid or base in urine. <snip>In some cases, checking your urine pH is helpful for identifying body acid-base imbalances. In other cases, a blood pH test is needed. <snip>The normal [urine pH test] values range from 4.6 to 8.0.

Quote from:
http://www.naturalhealthschool.com/acid-alkaline.html
"Most people who suffer from unbalanced pH are acidic. This condition forces the body to borrow minerals—including calcium, sodium, potassium and magnesium—from vital organs and bones to buffer (neutralize) the acid and safely remove it from the body. Because of this strain, the body can suffer severe and prolonged damage due to high acidity—a condition that may go undetected for years."

Note: "... a condition that may go undetected for years."

You can see in these articles that pH in the body flucuates with dramatic effect in people. Also the pH scale is logarithmic, where an increment of 1 unit in pH is a tenfold increase in hydrogen ions.

The mammalian body is crazy about keeping that pH just correct. Nothing you do (diet, warmups, whatever) can change that.

According to my references, all the things in your list can affect your body's pH, therefore it can affect your blood pH. Once again, any reference that states otherwise? You specified "... breathing normally and not exercising strenuously...", whereas I think you need to add many more idealic states for the claims to be accurate. Such as, no digestion taking place, perfect health, specific metabolic state, excreted excess acids from previous digestion/activity, body temperature, etc...

What you are actually modulating with your warmups and such, is buffer capacity.

Yes, in the short term it is easily modified. However, "warmups and such" is rather vague, so I find I am hesitant to agree that everybody prior to a static has stable levels of body fluid and tissue pH.

If you do a breathe up however, you get alkalosis, which goes away as soon as you start breathing normally. During a static, you get acidosis, which disappears when you start breathing again.

If you do a breathe up before a static, you start with an alkalosis, which soon turns into an acidosis. The speed of this turnaround is mainly dependant of the buffer capacity of blood.

The original context of discussing blood alkalinity and acidity was towards factors that affect one's static. It seemed that this is what you referred to as being a "silly" reference. Now it appears that you are only referring to attempts to change one's blood pH in the short-term prior to a static. Do I understand you correctly?

[Oligo]

Originally Posted by tylerz

"pH of the plasma (i.e. pH of the plasma of whole blood = conventional "blood" pH) is controlled at 7.4 (7.35 - 7.45). <snip> Changes in plasma pH reflect pH changes in other compartments."

Previously, you stated blood and body fluid, however here you are only referring to blood. The blood may be ~7.4 but other tissue and fluid will have differences in pH. As quoted below valid ranges are 4.6-8 in pH tests of urine.

Blood pH is indeed linked with pH of other bodily compartments and vice versa. And as we know that blood pH stays pretty much fixed, so does the pH of other compartments that are linked to it. Furthermore, the pH of blood is of the utmost importance to an apneist as blood is one of the primary stores for oxygen and carbon dioxide.

Urine does not affect the pH of the rest of the body as it is the final destination of excess acid and/or base molecules. Thus the pH of urine changes so that the pH of the rest of the body would stay the same, as pointed out by the source you gave:

Originally Posted by tylerz

"The pH in blood is maintained within the narrow range of 7.35 to 7.45. <snip>Long-term correction of blood pH requires the kidneys to excrete the acid or base in urine. <snip>In some cases, checking your urine pH is helpful for identifying body acid-base imbalances. In other cases, a blood pH test is needed. <snip>The normal [urine pH test] values range from 4.6 to 8.0.

Originally Posted by tylerz

http://www.naturalhealthschool.com/acid-alkaline.html
"Most people who suffer from unbalanced pH are acidic. This condition forces the body to borrow minerals—including calcium, sodium, potassium and magnesium—from vital organs and bones to buffer (neutralize) the acid and safely remove it from the body. Because of this strain, the body can suffer severe and prolonged damage due to high acidity—a condition that may go undetected for years."

I won't comment on this reference as it is sales material for a health food store and not a scientific document.

Originally Posted by tylerz

You can see in these articles that pH in the body flucuates with dramatic effect in people. Also the pH scale is logarithmic, where an increment of 1 unit in pH is a tenfold increase in hydrogen ions.

According to my references, all the things in your list can affect your body's pH, therefore it can affect your blood pH. Once again, any reference that states otherwise? You specified "... breathing normally and not exercising strenuously...", whereas I think you need to add many more idealic states for the claims to be accurate. Such as, no digestion taking place, perfect health, specific metabolic state, excreted excess acids from previous digestion/activity, body temperature, etc...

The scientific references you gave point out that the pH of the blood and other bodily compartments linked to it is strictly maintained at a certain level, partly by breathing and partly by excretion. Thus the references you gave prove my point about the pH of the body being a near constant in a healthy individual (7.35 - 7.45).

Originally Posted by tylerz

The original context of discussing blood alkalinity and acidity was towards factors that affect one's static. It seemed that this is what you referred to as being a "silly" reference. Now it appears that you are only referring to attempts to change one's blood pH in the short-term prior to a static. Do I understand you correctly?

I was referring to attempts other than breathe up routines to change the pH of the blood and linked bodily fluids as being silly as it is the buffer capacity (not pH) you change by warmup routines, diet and so forth.

[tylerz]

Originally Posted by Oligo

Blood pH is indeed linked with pH of other bodily compartments and vice versa. And as we know that blood pH stays pretty much fixed, so does the pH of other compartments that are linked to it.

I didn't realize the other compartments do not fluctuate much more than the blood in general. It seems that the general clarification you are targetting is that the blood, and affecting compartments', pH under healthy resting conditions are not going to deviate from their corresponding healthy range due to diet, or temporary activities. I understand this more clearly now after researching to try to understand where you are coming from.

Now, irregardless of the amount of pH changes, I am mainly trying to suggest that acid is formed at different rates, with different quantities, and as different specific types, depending on variables at work (ie. exercise, diet, metabolism, etc...).

Urine does not affect the pH of the rest of the body as it is the final destination of excess acid and/or base molecules. Thus the pH of urine changes so that the pH of the rest of the body would stay the same, as pointed out by the source you gave

It doesn't affect the pH of the body but it is a tell-tale window into the activity occuring in the body. If the urine is highly acidic, then the body has at some point been dealing with an excess production of acid. So, my reasoning is that if high levels are persistent then your body is generating excess acid and therefore it seems a reasonable claim to state your body is acidic. The actual pH of your blood and body tissue may not be outside of its healthy range due to buffering, but the fact that acid is being generated and as a result buffering occurs gives credence to claiming the body environment is more acidic than it could otherwise be.

The previous reasoning points out, that our discussion seems to be revolving around whether referring to one's body as acidic refers to an appreciable change in body pH or instead refers to one's state of acid production. If the distinction is made, do you agree that they are both valid? In this thread I refer to the latter in speaking of variables affecting our statics.

I was referring to attempts other than breathe up routines to change the pH of the blood and linked bodily fluids as being silly as it is the buffer capacity (not pH) you change by warmup routines, diet and so forth.

And I am suggesting that one is affecting more than just buffer capacity, also affected is acid production. Which in turn will lower buffer capacity.

Cheers,
Tyler

------------------------

Other related points and articles:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...SH/coral2.html
But your blood never becomes acidic because as soon as the proteins are converted to organic acids, calcium leaves your bones to neutralize the acid and prevent any change in pH. Because of this, many scientists think that taking in too much protein may weaken bones to cause osteoporosis.

http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/full/537/3/993
The changes in interstitial pH exceeded the changes in venous blood pH.
<snip>
Furthermore, studies using microdialysis in active muscle have demonstrated that during
muscle activity interstitial concentrations of lactate were higher than venous lactate c
oncentrations (MacLean et al. 1999), suggesting that the equilibration across the capill
ary wall is restricted.
<snip>
In addition, the buffer capacity of interstitium and blood is different.
<snip>
For these reasons, it can be hypothesised that the exercise-induced changes in interstit
ial and venous blood pH are different and that the changes in venous blood pH underestim
ate the local interstitial pH changes.
<snip>
Thus resting muscle pH is at least 0.2 pH units lower than interstitial pH (7.38).

[perow1]

How many of you +6.30 divers find dry static training beneficial, and what do you do to resemble the wet static as much as possible?

Sometimes it feels like training dry static is training something COMPLETELY different than wet static. There are SO many differences, but since pool times are precious to me I have to rely on some dry static. You get good at what you train and doing a +6.30 static dry is no game, but when i get to the pool it is so much different. I am aware of the many things that makes a dry static easier, for me the biggest deal is body position in the water. My question is;
Is the dry static training simply a waste of time or is it beneficial? My theory, or should i say fear, is that when approaching my limit i have to work on the details that has to do with the water, no matter how great my increases on land may be. If I work to hard on details on land i mightfind a way that is great for dry statics, but useless for wet static. I DO practice wet static aswell, but not as often as I would like.

[Oligo]

Originally Posted by tylerz

I didn't realize the other compartments do not fluctuate much more than the blood in general. It seems that the general clarification you are targetting is that the blood, and affecting compartments', pH under healthy resting conditions are not going to deviate from their corresponding healthy range due to diet, or temporary activities.

Yes, that's what I am saying.

Originally Posted by tylerz

Now, irregardless of the amount of pH changes, I am mainly trying to suggest that acid is formed at different rates, with different quantities, and as different specific types, depending on variables at work (ie. exercise, diet, metabolism, etc...).

You are correct. And the effect of these variables shows up in urine pH.

Originally Posted by tylerz

So, my reasoning is that if high levels are persistent then your body is generating excess acid and therefore it seems a reasonable claim to state your body is acidic. The actual pH of your blood and body tissue may not be outside of its healthy range due to buffering, but the fact that acid is being generated and as a result buffering occurs gives credence to claiming the body environment is more acidic than it could otherwise be.

Well, I strongly suggest that you should not use those words in such a way. When you have acidosis (during a static for example), then your body is acidic. If your body is dealing with excess acid from diet or elsewhere, but is not actually acidic, then you should maybe call it acid stress. To avoid confusion, you know.

[jome]

Originally Posted by perow1

Is the dry static training simply a waste of time or is it beneficial? My theory, or should i say fear, is that when approaching my limit i have to work on the details that has to do with the water, no matter how great my increases on land may be. If I work to hard on details on land i mightfind a way that is great for dry statics, but useless for wet static. I DO practice wet static aswell, but not as often as I would like.

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time, at least in the beginning. I rarely do it anymore, but I'd say 90% of my progress is from dry statics...

Yes, it's a different thing, but dry statics are very useful for a few things:
-Experimenting with "juggling of variables". Unless you have access to pool everyday, you simply cannot do this in water effectively. You can change things around in your peraparation and see what works or not and do it safely. For example trying out different ventilation strategies, different eating strategies etc and so forth. Through trial and error you start to understand and read your body and it's reactions and what works and what doesn't. For example after trying right after a heavy meal a few times, you will soon realize something, as well as trying statics right after 2 hours of jogging...You get the idea...
-Physiological adaptations to High CO2/low o2. All kinds of wonderful things you can do with empty lungs etc
-Mental tolerance: I find it is easier to push further in dry, simply because it is safer. This is an individual thing, but still.
-Pack stretching: doing statics (with packing) regularily will greatly enhance your packing volume. Wheather or not this is healthy, I will not say, but it does increase your times significantly

I would say that dry statics are useful, but you should always treat them as their own thing...It's like in dynamic, you can break the performance into components and practise them individually: technique, speed, apnea, balance...In dry static you can train some of the "components" of statics, but it will not usually directly apply to your wet static. You are missing some crucial "components" that simply have to be trained in water.

The one really useful thing I've found out is using a nose clip during dry statics. I found that it really makes me much more uncomfortable, plus I was taking "micro breaths" through my nose. Since your nose is blocked in water anyway (regardless if you use a noseclip or not), I find it simulates that environment better...

The most useful thing about dry statics is that you can do tons of them easily and safely. Most of us simply cannot get that kind of training frequency in water, but I agree, if you can, you should do it in water. But it gets boring really fast, so I suggest that you don't get stuck on just doing the same routine and a max hold every day. Try to experiment, try varying your routines, try to find the weaknesses in it. Sometimes, don't even go for max, do things like no warmup maximums, timing just contractions, series of FRC/empty lung statics...Stuff to keep it interesting...Save your "solid routine" for in water and competition statics, but use dry to try and find out a better one...

[perow1]

Some interesting point there, Simo. If i look close on my training i have to admit that i tend to get to "static" in my dry static training and if i look back on some of the positive things I must say most of them are due to change.

Originally Posted by jome

do things like no warmup maximums, timing just contractions, series of FRC/empty lung statics...Stuff to keep it interesting...

I have addapted that and i find no warmup statics to be a great thing to do. physically you get used to endure heavy contractions and mentally you KNOW that you can endure it. I have reached a level where my no warmups are almost as good as when using a proper routine, closing up on five minutes in contractions. (What is strange is that i find empty lung statics MUCH more easy in water opposed to what i feel doing static with full lungs)

Still I think i only use the alternative sessions only as training and when i do the statics the "normal" way i tend to fall back to some routines and just want to go for a max, maybe with an improvement and maybe not. I tend to use my ordinary statics as a measurement of my improvement. You have got me to think there, thanks. The measurement of improvement must be the wet statics.

Another problem with dry statics for me is that it is almost impossible to reach the stage of LMC. A warmup that would result in LMC 9/10 times in water, can actually end up fine on land. I have pushed myself close to LMC on land, but thats only when i do "crazy" stuff. (or maybe Im not close to my limit). I do not strive to get LMC, but what I am trying to say is that if Im supposed to juggle with variables on land than I have to be sensitive in my evaluation of what is right.

As for the nose clip, that is a good one. You do get a greater feeling of suffocation when using a noseclip. Still i think I am aware of many of my problems in water but far from all. One of the major things is body position. When i do it on land i lie on my back with perfect body position. In water, face downis the thing. I hope dry static on my back wont be contraproductive in my struggle to feel really relaxed in the pool. I mean will a lot of on-my-back-statics condition my body making it default? Is there a way to get through this on land? I guess that this is a matter of wet training, but still i find it interesting. Lying on my stomach on land is not that easy. Maybe if one had acess to one of these massage benchs with a hole for the face.

[jome]

Originally Posted by perow1

I have addapted that and i find no warmup statics to be a great thing to do. physically you get used to endure heavy contractions and mentally you KNOW that you can endure it.

Yes, it's great training for that. And once you know you can do time x without warmup, it so much easier mentally to do time x with warmup...

Originally Posted by perow1

I have reached a level where my no warmups are almost as good as when using a proper routine, closing up on five minutes in contractions. (What is strange is that i find empty lung statics MUCH more easy in water opposed to what i feel doing static with full lungs)

Most people I've talked to seem to reach 90-95% of their max without warmup. It's painful and I cannot muster the willpower to do it every day, but I can get there if needed. Some have even exceeded their pbs that way. But like you, when trying for an optimal static, I fall back on my warmups and routines. Simply more consistent that way...

5 minutes of contractions? You must be hitting pretty good times then

Originally Posted by perow1

Still I think i only use the alternative sessions only as training and when i do the statics the "normal" way i tend to fall back to some routines and just want to go for a max, maybe with an improvement and maybe not. I tend to use my ordinary statics as a measurement of my improvement. You have got me to think there, thanks. The measurement of improvement must be the wet statics.

It's good to have a solid routine in your back pocket, that you know will work best for a situation. But dry statics are a great way to experiment and try to find fine tunings to the routine, that would make it even better. I've tried a couple of times changing something in my preparation just the night before competition or something...It does not work, you just mess up. Better to find the improvements in time and incorporate them in your routine, so in competition you can do a solid performance.

One notable thing about routines though. The simpler they are, the better they work in competition. If you have a timetable by the minute when to start and stop breath holds, it's very hard to keep track of it and if you loose track you will panic and think all is lost. But if your routine is on the lines of "oh, I'll just do a couple of warmups before top and I'm all set", then it's very hard to mess that up. Especially if you know that even without warmup, you can get a 90% performance, so any warmup you sneak in, is "enough". The "perfect routine" only makes the static easier, but it does not necessarily make it longer...

Another problem with dry statics for me is that it is almost impossible to reach the stage of LMC. A warmup that would result in LMC 9/10 times in water, can actually end up fine on land. I have pushed myself close to LMC on land, but thats only when i do "crazy" stuff. (or maybe Im not close to my limit). I do not strive to get LMC, but what I am trying to say is that if Im supposed to juggle with variables on land than I have to be sensitive in my evaluation of what is right.

Yeah, it seems to be harder to reach samba on dry static. And I think it gets harder the more you train. My thought on that is that however sealed up you think you are, you may still be taking tiny amounts of air, or simply diffusing it to your lungs. This does not make much of difference in how bad you feel or how strong the breathing reflex is, but when the o2 saturation is very low, it would keep you on the edge just for ever. Just a theory, I don't know how playsiable that is. Then there is skin breathing etc...All of this is removed in water. The effect may be negliable in normal life, but combined all this could maybe stretch the very end of the static beyond "normal"? I dunno, just a thought...

As for the nose clip, that is a good one. You do get a greater feeling of suffocation when using a noseclip.

Heh, this quote taken out of context would make us look even more sane than usual

Still i think I am aware of many of my problems in water but far from all. One of the major things is body position. When i do it on land i lie on my back with perfect body position. In water, face downis the thing. I hope dry static on my back wont be contraproductive in my struggle to feel really relaxed in the pool. I mean will a lot of on-my-back-statics condition my body making it default? Is there a way to get through this on land? I guess that this is a matter of wet training, but still i find it interesting. Lying on my stomach on land is not that easy. Maybe if one had acess to one of these massage benchs with a hole for the face.

I haven't found a solution that. I simply accept the fact that they are different things. One of the main reasons you need to also train wet statics, is that the position can feel very ackward if you're used to laying in bed. So, even with all the dry training in the world, if you want to be good, you still need some pool time...There's ultimately no substitute IMO.

Having reached a "good enough" level, nowadays I rarely do dry statics or train that much in anycase. A few weeks before a competition I will start semi regular pool statics and that seems to do the trick and within a few days I'm usually at my old level...

[perow1]

Originally Posted by jome

5 minutes of contractions? You must be hitting pretty good times then

Well, closing up on seven mins. If you do the math you can figure out how early i get my first contractions if i do not delay them with some kind of warmup. Interestingly when i do this i do not neccesarily do better no warm up statics when i get the reflex late, it seems to be more linked to what number it has (If i do consecutive days i tend to do the best the third/fourth day) Maybe it might have to to do with oxygenconserving effects as discussed before. Early=contractions=early onset of oxygen conserving. Not sure though. Than i have this problem with heat. When i try to do long statics without warmup i get really hot. That is one of the main reasons i have trouble doing it in water. I think i have posted about that before.

I used to think of early contractions as a problem, but at least mentally i like to think of it as an advantage even if it really isn´t. Still my contractions never get very hard, they are just a slow uncomfortable feeling just getting ugly at the very end of a static. Why i get them early one day and later another is still something i have to figure out.

Originally Posted by jome

Yeah, it seems to be harder to reach samba on dry static. And I think it gets harder the more you train. My thought on that is that however sealed up you think you are, you may still be taking tiny amounts of air, or simply diffusing it to your lungs. This does not make much of difference in how bad you feel or how strong the breathing reflex is, but when the o2 saturation is very low, it would keep you on the edge just for ever. Just a theory, I don't know how playsiable that is. Then there is skin breathing etc...All of this is removed in water. The effect may be negliable in normal life, but combined all this could maybe stretch the very end of the static beyond "normal"? I dunno, just a thought...

Maybe this might be the madmans way of altitude training If we are able to stay within reasonable oxygen levels this may be as training 7000m above sea level if you just keep going letting the air diffuse .

Seriously though, if the skin is able to "breathe" it might be affected by training making the body conditioned to take up oxygen through the skin. At some point this might be contraproductive to your underwater life. I do not belive it myslef really, but there is a chance.

Concerning the feeling of suffocation. Isn´t that the feeling we all love? Or wish we loved anyway.

[SEDATE]

Originally Posted by jome

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time, at least in the beginning. I rarely do it anymore, but I'd say 90% of my progress is from dry statics...

Yes, it's a different thing, but dry statics are very useful for a few things:
-Experimenting with "juggling of variables". Unless you have access to pool everyday, you simply cannot do this in water effectively. You can change things around in your peraparation and see what works or not and do it safely. For example trying out different ventilation strategies, different eating strategies etc and so forth. Through trial and error you start to understand and read your body and it's reactions and what works and what doesn't. For example after trying right after a heavy meal a few times, you will soon realize something, as well as trying statics right after 2 hours of jogging...You get the idea...
-Physiological adaptations to High CO2/low o2. All kinds of wonderful things you can do with empty lungs etc
-Mental tolerance: I find it is easier to push further in dry, simply because it is safer. This is an individual thing, but still.
-Pack stretching: doing statics (with packing) regularily will greatly enhance your packing volume. Wheather or not this is healthy, I will not say, but it does increase your times significantly

I would say that dry statics are useful, but you should always treat them as their own thing...It's like in dynamic, you can break the performance into components and practise them individually: technique, speed, apnea, balance...In dry static you can train some of the "components" of statics, but it will not usually directly apply to your wet static. You are missing some crucial "components" that simply have to be trained in water.

The one really useful thing I've found out is using a nose clip during dry statics. I found that it really makes me much more uncomfortable, plus I was taking "micro breaths" through my nose. Since your nose is blocked in water anyway (regardless if you use a noseclip or not), I find it simulates that environment better...

The most useful thing about dry statics is that you can do tons of them easily and safely. Most of us simply cannot get that kind of training frequency in water, but I agree, if you can, you should do it in water. But it gets boring really fast, so I suggest that you don't get stuck on just doing the same routine and a max hold every day. Try to experiment, try varying your routines, try to find the weaknesses in it. Sometimes, don't even go for max, do things like no warmup maximums, timing just contractions, series of FRC/empty lung statics...Stuff to keep it interesting...Save your "solid routine" for in water and competition statics, but use dry to try and find out a better one...

Jome I agree with you %100, i can easily say it works and helps...i mean working dry static at home!..
just start doing dry static for 3 months orderly and in this period i never went to the pool ..only tested in the Sea last week!
6 monts ago i was not able to stay under water over 1:30 my best was 4:00(dry) at that time, now the last was 3:45 and 3:50 and was very easy and it was near %70 of my capacity, 5:50(dry)
i dived to -7m and planed to hold my breath just to till 4 or 5 constarctions ..i think the first constraction came around 3:00(2:50 at home comes) and 3 or 4 constractions more returned to surface....i arranged my weight to be neutral at -6m hence at -7m i was completely negative when i dive and hold breath i find out that the trick is to wake up diving reflex first!(needed)..3 or 4 times dived to -4m stayed 30sec and returned to surface and i felt dive reflex kicked i mean my heartbeat was below 50 bpm.. relaxed 3min at surface not packing not emptying lung only getting a deep breath and dive to -7m the result came! i have got this result in the fist dive meanwhile sea temp was 15C and used 5mm dress and some likes holding breath on the surface, i like swallow water breathhold at -6m/-7m i fell more relaxed and comfortable when water cover me totally and i easly clear my mind %100
i will start dry static in 3 days..i will check where i am ..i will try beyond 6+, All the Best

[picasso]

Originally Posted by efattah

Any person who develops thick enough blood, and a slow enough metabolism, should be able to do over 5 minutes on a FULL EXHALE. I think every person, even if they only have a 5L lung capacity, has the ability to do over 9 minutes at least, on a full inhale. This is easily shown by using real-world examples of blood volume, hematocrit, low O2 tolerance, metabolic rate, and so on.

Remember that children have gone underwater and remained there for over 40 minutes without brain damage. Don't say that they had HUGE lungs and great training...! This just shows the effect of body temperature, and decreased brain metabolism (since children's brains consume much less O2 than an ordinary 'awake' adult brain).

The minimum metabolic rate for mammals has been calculated. If you do the math, and take a fit person with big lungs, the theoretical limit for static is over 6 hours without loss of consciousness. So, to say that you can 'never reach 8 minutes' is definitely false.

Only a few years from now the record will be over 10 minutes and most people will be playing with 8 minutes rather than 6.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Didn't take so long ...:

SIETAS over 10 - New WR
2008-06-07 By: aida
Tom SIETAS, GER, did a fantastic NEW WORLD RECORD in Static Apnea today. 10'12" is the new time, 57 seconds better than his old record, 9'15" from earlier this year. This attempt was done in Athen, Greece, 7th of June, 2008.