Beyond 6:30 in static apnea

[efattah]

The two longest breath-holds I know of, with 'small' lung capacities:
1. Sam Still 9'55" (lungs about 8L with packing I think--this was after 10 days of fasting)
2. Tyler Zetterstrom 8'07" (lungs about 8L with packing)
3. Ryuzo Shinomiya 8'05" (lungs less than 8L w/packing)

[jome]

Well, next I'd like to correct the values with a coefficient that takes into account body weight and blood thickness...

I'm still fairly convinced there's no magic happening here and within a reasonable margin of error, all fall within the same "traditional" theory of breath holding.
Sam Still being the big question mark there. For his bodyweight, even 8 liters is very big, but not 10 minutes big...

To rephrase what I'm saying (starting to confuse my self):
-Take 10 top static guys in the world (that is to say people, who have perfected preparation routines, relaxation and trained enough to have found their physiological limit)
-Calculate total oxygen stores of each (lungvolume, blood) (this needs to be presice, not based on what someone may have written sometime in db or something)
-Correct oxygen stores to match their body mass (linear should be close enough)
-Divide corrected oxygen store with their pb.

It would be interesting to see, how much deviation there is in the results. Of course there will be some, but I bet statistically significant findings would be rare to non existent.

[efattah]

Well, according to research papers on Medline, metabolism drops by 12-13% after 7 days of fasting, and another 12-13% after another 7 days of fasting, reaching a limit of 25% below basal metabolism after 14 days, without any significant drop. A 25% gain in time on an 8-minute hold yields 10 minutes... all you need to do is minimize catabolism by minimizing physical activity during the fast, theoretically. When I tried a 6 day fast I was doing way too much physical activity. According to my O2/CO2 monitor, my metabolism had dropped by 10% or more, I simply couldn't hold my breath effectively due to excess uric acid build up. Sam Still, on the other hand, does almost no activity during his fasts.

Now, your metabolism also depends on your body temperature. In the absence of thermogenesis, metabolism drops dramatically with each degree celsius drop in body temperature. Cold training can lower your thermogenesis threshold by up to 1.5 degrees celsius. Further, heating a diet high in goitrogens and low in iodine can induce hypothyroidism, which further reduces your temperature set point. The combination of hypothyroidism and cold training could add another 20% to your apnea, on top of the 25% induced by fasting.

We know that Tom Sietas doesn't fast for more than a few hours, and he uses a wetsuit (implying that no cold tolerance training is at play). I don't know about hypothyroidism. But if you assume he isn't hypothyroid, then add 45% to his hold for fasting/hypothyroid/cold tolerance and you would get 14'40" as his max.

[jome]

Ok, now this thread is getting warm again...Thanks!

I've been meaning to do cold training for a long time, but keep putting it off...I simply hate cold. Would be interesting to see if it really makes a significant difference (which would not be hard to believe). I think I'll steer clear of the hypothyroidism...

[DeepThought]

Originally Posted by efattah

What I have found is that although FRC training does create a big increase in hemoglobin, the hemoglobin definitely behaves differently than hemoglobin obtained through inhale training, probably in terms of the Hb-O2 dissociation curve.

Could you make that difference out of just storing a lot more CO2 in the blood while doing FRC (due to smaller air volume)?

And yes, VERY interesting thread!!

[perow1]

I find it strange to conclude a 15%drop in metabolism will add 25% to the static time. I can agree that a drop in metabolism is a major factor, but a simply additative effect seems strange.

[Oligo]

There is such a thing as a basal metabolic rate. This metabolism accounts for the energy expended by your cells for “housekeeping”, that is, maintaining the homeostasis of the system. This rate can only be lowered by reducing body temperature, a lot. Incidentally, it is very hard to survive a drastic drop in body temperature, since we are warm blooded animals and our bodies have adapted to a nice 37 degrees Celcius.

Then there is the issue of neural activity, which is of great interest to a static apneist. Comatose people are very good in static apnea, because there is no energy guzzling nerve activity in their nervous systems. Then again, comatose people cannot complete the surface protocol.

So whatever preparation you do for static, there is still the basal metabolic rate and the nerve activity in your brain, eating out that oxygen at a steady pace. There is no escape.

[SEDATE]

Oligo Comatose people ??/where they are living?/ i never heard it before!? /you mean escimo people???!! right?!

[Walrus]

The two longest breath-holds I know of, with 'small' lung capacities:
1. Sam Still 9'55" (lungs about 8L with packing I think--this was after 10 days of fasting)
2. Tyler Zetterstrom 8'07" (lungs about 8L with packing)
3. Ryuzo Shinomiya 8'05" (lungs less than 8L w/packing)

For the record I've spent quite a bit of time training with Ryuzo, and quite the oposite he has very high lung volume. He showed me his spiro graph from his medical for the cyprus comp we were in. I can't remember what it was exactly but his VC without packing was 7-8 litres ?!
I don't think he packs all that much for static, he barely breaths up at all and has absolutely stupid CO2 tolerance. On his final statics he doesn't start getting contractions until after 6min, and often only gets 6-8 contractions in total.
Yes well compared to me I used to do the contraction counting thing, and after hitting the 80+ mark I gave up interest and stopped doing that sort of thing...

Cheers,
Wal

[Bill]

I'm still having trouble with setting arbitrary limits on divers based on lung size. Since it might just sound like bragging, I didn't say much. Isn't it obvious that a small person with seven liter lungs may have an advantage over a large person with eight liters? Should we be telling new divers that they have no chance in competition?

Since my 'small' (5.3L Vc) lungs have enabled me to do sevens and when I was in top shape for three brief periods during the last two years I did back-to-back sevens two minutes apart without packing, I'm positive that there is something that we don't understand about static, yet.

My thinking now has to do with lung volume divided by skin and muscle mass, maybe even muscle type and personality type (can a type A individual ever really relax). Fat percentage doesn't seem to hurt. It may even help with CO2 storage, except as it pertains to aerobic condition, which is important.

Packing is a strange factor and very individual, I'm sure. I can pack over a liter but it takes 30 seconds, so when I start, I have 10% more O2 minus the consumption for 30 seconds. You also have to factor in some thing for extra effort to keep the air down. I only pack fully for 60 meter dives, about 1/3 for statics. It also seems to signal the heart to go to resting pulse rate.

What do you think?

Aloha
Bill

[efattah]

You only need to be able to respond to signals near the end of the static, and you only need to do the surface protocol at the end of the static.

This means your brain can be asleep during the main part of the static.

Therefore, it is conceivable that a person could put themselves in a 'cataleptic' state, (this has been documented), and then 'wake themselves up' near the end of the static.

In Monaco we were not required to give any signals, just finish the protocol at the end.

[tylerz]

Originally Posted by Walrus

I don't think he packs all that much for static, he barely breaths up at all and has absolutely stupid CO2 tolerance. On his final statics he doesn't start getting contractions until after 6min, and often only gets 6-8 contractions in total.
Yes well compared to me I used to do the contraction counting thing, and after hitting the 80+ mark I gave up interest and stopped doing that sort of thing...

Cheers,
Wal

How did you determine his CO2 tolerance is crazy? You may not have intended the meaning I gathered, but it looks like you are suggesting his late, and few contractions, to be a sign of high CO2 tolerance? Whereas measuring is the only way I suspect of determining a high CO2 tolerance (or measuring all other variables to determine it by implication). I get contractions very early, and was counting to 120-150 eventually (4min).

The fact that he gets contractions so late, suggests one of the following or a combination is likely:
- ventillating significantly
- ventillating efficiently (can occur with normal breathing)
- he is quite alkaline naturally or otherwise.
- his metabolism is low or becomes low.
- he took a hit of oxygen (just kidding)

All of these can assist in achieving the results and still have a person with an average freediver CO2 tolerance.

I would say a person who withstands contractions for a long period of time is a more likely candidate for having a high CO2 tolerance. Although the same person could hyperventillate more and get their contractions much later, but only withstand a small percentage of their normal amount.

Cheers,

Tyler

[Walrus]

Tyler,
some people get different meanings from the term Co2 tolerance. When I talk of CO2 tolerance, I mean your bodies response to high CO2, not how many contractions you can tolerate. I would call that 'contraction tolerance' perhaps, it's really just willpower.
Ryuzo does an extremely mild breathe up, in that he hardly purges at all, and gets very late urge to breathe and contractions. So how I understand the term he has very high natural CO2 tolerance. From what I've seen with people it's mostly a genetic thing, some people seem to be able to improve it most I know can't. For most people I know, myself included training CO2 tables only has a temporary effect that lasts a few weeks.

CO2 tolerance is really not that subtle that you have to measure it. Even if I hyperventilate to the absolute max I can only delay contractions to maybe 4.30 on a max and still get heaps, 50+. For other people they would get no contractions at all until they reach blackout level. Being quite alkaline naturally could be a big part of it.

Cheers,
Wal

[fpernett]

I have to agree with Walter, the CO2 tolerance is defined as a blunted ventilatory response to high levels of venous blood CO2, it's physiological. So a person with high CO2 tolerance doesn't have a strong ventilatory drive (contractions) to high CO2 levels. The contraction are not only due to high CO2, Low O2 levels or low pH can also induce the ventilatory drive, but it´s less frequent. The only way to measure CO2 tolerance with confidence is having the subject breathing a mix of gases with normal levels of O2 and increasing the level of CO2. The High tolerance subject don't increase ventilation as early neither as much as another subject with low CO2 tolerance.
But I don't think genetics are the only way. Breath-hold divers with regular training have higher CO2 tolerance that non freediving subjects. Genetics have their part, but training and willpower also have a big one

[DeepThought]

What other differences can we expect between high/low CO2 tolerance people on the same breathold?
How about vasoconstriction? pulse?
Contractions probably elevate cerebral BP and lower pulse... on the other hand they take some O2 probably...
Does having the worse physical CO2 tolerance yet the will power of a titan will produce the best results?