Beyond 6:30 in static apnea

[tylerz]

Originally Posted by Walrus

Tyler,
some people get different meanings from the term Co2 tolerance. When I talk of CO2 tolerance, I mean your bodies response to high CO2, not how many contractions you can tolerate. I would call that 'contraction tolerance' perhaps, it's really just willpower.

I agree.

Ryuzo does an extremely mild breathe up, in that he hardly purges at all, and gets very late urge to breathe and contractions. So how I understand the term he has very high natural CO2 tolerance.

I understand your reasoning but I think it is oversimplified because of the fact that it can easily be very misleading. If that was the only variable then I would agree you spotted his CO2 tolerance. However, I pointed out, in my previous post, a number of known variables which emphasize that given any 10 people who have contractions starting at the same time and you will find their CO2 levels have significant variances, or if their contractions begin at differing times the person who gets them the latest may be experiencing the least CO2 tolerance. This is using your definition of CO2 tolerance. You would have no means of determining if they were currently experiencing high CO2 levels. And that is why I said measuring would be required.

From what I've seen with people it's mostly a genetic thing, some people seem to be able to improve it most I know can't. For most people I know, myself included training CO2 tables only has a temporary effect that lasts a few weeks.

Scientists here found that freedivers have a higher ventillation ability/efficiency than non-freediving participants. Meaning they could expel more CO2 with the equivalent effort as a non-trained participant. This implies training variances will affect variances in initial CO2 levels. Your blood and tissue acidity is known to be highly adjustable by diet. Buffers are adjustable. Metabolism is highly adjustable.

I have not seen any argument that tries to explain how given this information, genetics can still be implied to be the main source of current experienced abilities. If you are saying the plateau, or theoretical barrier is due to genetics, then I might agree, but that is largely useless to refer to in my opinion because you never know what it is. There are many who were plateaued for ages at some level that you could claim was due to their gentics, yet suddenly they leap forward in performance by over 1 minute.

CO2 tolerance is really not that subtle that you have to measure it. Even if I hyperventilate to the absolute max I can only delay contractions to maybe 4.30 on a max and still get heaps, 50+. For other people they would get no contractions at all until they reach blackout level. Being quite alkaline naturally could be a big part of it.

Well, unless you present some numerical evidence, since your definition of CO2 tolerance is "response to high CO2", you have no way of backing up the idea that "CO2 tolerance is really not subtle". By your own definition explain what supports that proposition? The fact that there are such huge differences experienced amongst people after hyperventilating implies what with a high degree of certainty? Being quite alkaline very easily "could" be a big part of it, but considering your alkalinity is "very easily" adjusted, diet is more likely a big part of it, especially since we all have such differences in dietary lifestyle.


Cheers,

Tyler

[efattah]

To give people an idea of how much body alkalinity affects contractions; during the most acidic time ever (after many days of fasting & uric acid accumulation), I would get contractions at 1'30"-2'20" no matter how much I hyperventilated. During extremely alkaline phases, I had my first contraction as late as 7'00"... so do I have high CO2 tolerance or not?

There have been periods where I have taken just two or three breaths and then had my first contraction at more than 5 minutes. Other times I would hyperventilate forever (to the point of dizzyness) and get my first contraction at 2'20".

My experience is that CO2 tables (for me) have a very minor effect on my contraction times, no matter how many days or weeks I do them. In my case it seems that body alkalinity and/or buffers are the main factor. Doing lots of anaerobic training can increase buffer levels.

[fpernett]

I believe that unless we measure PaO2, SvO2, PaCO2, PvCO2 (or EtCO2) and arterial and venous pH, is just guessing to know the cause of contractions.

I think (with no evidence) that all this factors may have a role, and indivual differences will make one factor to be more important than the other.

[OceanMan]

Originally Posted by efattah

My experience is that CO2 tables (for me) have a very minor effect on my contraction times, no matter how many days or weeks I do them. In my case it seems that body alkalinity and/or buffers are the main factor. Doing lots of anaerobic training can increase buffer levels.

What kind of anaerobic training do you suggest to increase buffer levels?
Thank you.

[SEDATE]

Today morning i made a big hold....first constraction came 3:15 i did not manage to beat my 5:01 barier..before all time while holding big hold was comming 2:55 ..but honestly talking ..i know all time first constraction was commıng around 2:50 or 2:55 ..notes them on a table...when 2:55 i did hold 5:01 when 3:15 i did 5:02 ....i do not know why..some says as long as you go beyond the fist constarction ..the big hold will be beyond...any idea?

[Groenberg]

Originally Posted by SEDATE

...first constraction came 3:15 i did not manage to beat my 5:01 barier..before all time while holding big hold was comming 2:55

Now i know, where i can imrove my static time. As i did my personal best of 4:05 i also had my first contraction at about 2:50 or 2:55.

In general i'd likt to know how long the time after the first contracion is in comparism to the time before.

[SEDATE]

Originally Posted by Groenberg

Now i know, where i can imrove my static time. As i did my personal best of 4:05 i also had my first contraction at about 2:50 or 2:55.

In general i'd likt to know how long the time after the first contracion is in comparism to the time before.

my idea 4:50 you can do! from 4:50 to 5:01 really mental barier...it is not easy to explain...10sec..try! my new firtst con now! 3:15 but not go over 5.01 as i mentioned before...i do make a mistake where i do not know!

[tylerz]

The time of your first contraction does not tell you anything usefull about your expected overall time unless you can be certain the rest of your body is in almost the same state as the static you are comparing to in reference. It can only be relative. Day to day if you check when your contractions first arrive, doing the exact same preparation, at the same time of day, with the same amount of rest, there are still many variables in your body that have changed, and therefore the contractions will have the ability to arrive at different times. They may fluxuate around an average time, but if the first contraction time increases in an isolated occurrence, it tells you nothing. It is also often due to slight differences in your breathe up preparation. You need the average to increase before first contraction actually may be deemed relevant, and then you still don't really know until the end of the static.

So, if I understood correctly Sedate's post to mean, "as long as you pass your previous best point of first contractions, without contractions, you have a personal best static in you for that hold,", then I would say that is incorrect. The statement implies it is absolute that you can do a PB that time. Therefore it is absolutely incorrect. There may be occurrences where that is the case, but there will be many more occurrences where that is not the case.

To prove my point, I could hyperventilate right now for 10min until I am almost passing out, hold my breath, and likely get contractions later than I ever have before. My static will definately be nowhere close to my PB. So, if you didn't hyperventilate and you got your first contractions later than normal, it is easily a sign that your body was less acidic that day, or a sign of 1 or more of the many other variables.

Secondly, 5:00 is not a barrier absolutely. It may be a barrier for some number of individuals, but no more so than 5:30, 4:30, 6:00, 6:30, 7:00... and so on, being barriers for some other number of individuals.

My recommendation, is ignore thinking about contractions. That is in my opinion self-inducing a limitation. Instead I would recommend "feeling" them. Focus on relaxing your body and assisting the motion of the contraction. Become one with the contraction. Enjoy its rhythm. Accept its presence. Think well of it. But seriously!

[SEDATE]

Thank you Tyler..Very helpfull advise for me!

[Panos Lianos]

Agree with Tyler about contraction times etc.

Think of each contraction as if it was a flash of light from an internal beacon (your diaphragm). Let each flash of light move through and out of your body without resisting. Let it relax you.

[SEDATE]

Thank to you Panos lianos, too ....very different aproach!....hımmm flash of light..i ll think it!!!...

[SEDATE]

5:30(Jump from 5:01 to 5:30)

i made today 5:30 as ignoring thinking about contractions like tyler said and when it comes i start think as the way like panos said..
the short story is as below:

short preparation for big hold as usual(no any hiperventilation in this period)
Before Big Hold: 2 min breathup, 3 slow hiperventilation, 3 sec relax after HV, 3/4 inhale and Hold!(no full exale, i can't do this!)
i start thinking nothing and try to be enjoy its rhythm when comes..Anyway things gone very well and suddenly close to the end i felt a strong pain in my stomach and check the time out it was 5:15( i am still ok but afraid of a little bit) ..thinking nothing decide to go till 5:30 and manage it very easily..

after geting a strong pain in my stomach decide to look at the watch cos' when i see 5:15 in cyrometer afraid a little bit,too

after 5:30 hold .i stop the cyronometer .i stand up and walk to see i am ok or not , i was ok. i got a glass of tea..and drunk!
Meanwhile i am very sure i have not got samba, i was ok..no any pain i mean headache,too...it was like a very good dream/s like jumping from one dimension to another
that's all

[SEDATE]

Meanwhile i ll search Db.net to download for short videos to watch Samba and BO to get more info!
while working alone dry static at home if get BO without getting samba, if would die!..it will be very comic and tragic
i do not wanna think about it...

[tylerz]

Oh my...

I hope before you went gallavanting (dramatic word for moving about) around your house, you stayed laying down for a minute? Samba and BO can occur 20+ secs after your begin breathing. Especially if you stand up!! You know how when you stand up and you get a head rush? Well, the same pressures that cause that, you are subjecting yourself to, therefore if there is any doubt about your state, you don't want to subject yourself to that. The first thing to do to avoid a Samba or BO is don't move. Relax for a minute.

Now that said... CONGRATULATIONS!!!
Glad you made some progress and had a good experience at it.

Be sure to look up information through DB regarding nutrition to support statics and the stress they induce on your body.

Cheers,

Tyler

[SEDATE]

Tyler
i will read all thread about ''nutrition''
Tomorrow morning ill try to hold till 6:00 i do not know i can hold or not, i ll try..
i ll inform you
honsetly talking today i dissappointed first, my plain was to come back to 5:00 cos' the best was 4:31 yesterday ..but suddenly jumped ..