CO2 compartment hypothesis

[pat fish]

hi everyone
my first post ever!
a very interesting discussion on a 'basic' topic of freediving. i train with a serious group of freedivers in switzerland and we usually do lots of co2 tables and only a minimum of 'deep/slow ventilation' as static preparation. my pb of 5'00' was set after a light anaerobic training (appr. 60min) followed by 10times 1'00'' statics with one breath in between and a 2 min normal vent.

i will check out a different preparation in the sense of the alan's table (1'00'' sldb - 1'40'' hold - 2'00'' sldb - 3'00'' hold - 8'00'' sldb + 1'00'' hypervent 1'00'' hold 1x breath 1'00'' hold 1x breath 1'00'' hold 2'00'' hypervent). then tell you more...

my question now: isn't the hyperventilation-tetania caused by the lack of free calcium ions (the drop in H+ concentration is beeing covered by Ca+ ions, which are then causing the symptoms well known as hyperventilation-symptoms)... so couldn't we prophylactically take calcium-enriched drinks/food to fill up the reservoirs. This would allow us to bring the body-water-compartiment faster and easier to an alcalic state and then in a second state apply the co2 table to bring the blood-water-compartiement to a acidic state. what do you think?

[pat fish]

me again - i owe you the results from testing alan's table:
my pb has improved to 5'11'' in four sessions.
first application of the original table: bo at 5' - co2 level reduced too much.
improvement: extension of the divetime of the first 2 dives and decreasing the breathing rate to 6 p.m. in the slow deep breathing part and extending the divetime on the third part of the preparation. and that's how it looks:

1. part (splenic contraction)
---------------------------------------------------------------
2'30'' hold
2'00'' breathing
3'30'' hold (should give 5 to 10 contractions)
2'00'' breathing

2. part (increasing pH in body compartment)
---------------------------------------------------------------
8'00'' slow deep breathing

3. part (acidification of the blood compartment)
---------------------------------------------------------------
1'30'' hold
1 breath
1'30'' hold
1 breath
1'30'' hold

2'00'' breathing

max. hold static

if the results really can be referred to the hypothesis (so many other factors like relaxation, diet, overall training shape, etc.) i would be a sample to prove it true.

yours pat

[Fred S.]

Pat, perhaps you can save some time doing exhale statics for the splenic contraction part....
But don't you think that the spleen sucks up all those extra rbc's again after about 13 minutes without hypoxia?

Fred S.

[pat fish]

that's exactly what i thought. but i it goes against our philosophy of mentally anchoring a positive experience (with the 2'30'' hold) at the very beginning. when i do a negative right away that isn't a very pleasant thing. so know i can explain a little better why i chose a 2'30'' and a 3'30'' on the 1st part: the 2'30'' is for the diving reflex and the "mental shifting into diving mode" and the latter one should activate the spleen to distribute extra rbc's.

i was worrying about the long time it takes to the max, but regarding the statements of the top athlethes a prep of 8 min before a max. is not too long at all. besides of that: it takes a certain minimum amount of time to increase the pH in the tissues (as proposed by efattah).

what do you think about negatives on the third part? i will sure stick to that table, but i don't want to mix up settings so it will take some more testing.

yours pat

[stevevidar]

Pat,
I think you might be over evaluating it. The ph theory proposed by Eric is just that, a theory. Notice nobody with 7+ times has said it definitely helped them improve. Not even Eric has said that. Right now it’s just a theory that may or may not prove to be beneficial. There are several techniques that are proven to be beneficial that top, as well as intermediate, divers are using to improve.

Regarding the negatives at the beginning, its up to you. But I would encourage you to give it a try, if nothing else, just to give you the confidence that you can achieve long statics in several ways. This will help, because when its competition time something always takes you out of your ideal normal comfortable warm up.
Steve

[pat fish]

thank you steve

i appreciate your comment. personally i judge the two factors relaxation ability and aerobic fitness in a function of training experience as the key factors for good static times. by testing different preparations you can improve what i call training experience. but as i said, i try not to mix up things - means i check out a different technique for about 3 times before adding/changing one element.

if have written my arguments against negatives at the very beginning- but systematic trial is still ahead!

i will keep you informed

yours pat

[alastair]

Eric wrote :

Thus, drinking citric acid makes you more alkaline. I always drink citric acid (i.e. from either lemon juice, or pure citric acid), a few hours before max apnea attempts.

Aha!! I tried it and it does seem to work.

Do you have any info on the rate at which the conversion from acid to alkaline occurs?

I sucked lemons the evening before and the morning of the comp. It would be easier to eat fewer at the right time.

Thanks

Al

[derelictp]

Hi,

I have been wondering about the optimal state regarding ph in the body water and ph in the blood.

Has anyone found out what state is the best for long breathholds???

[monterey jak]

hmm, i should try this, it sounds like it would work, ill try testing it out just as soon as i can understand more of it, haha its too early to think, but as far as i got, sounds good

[mbooradley]

Hi all!

I'm no diver and am new to these forums, but I have had a few physiology courses (more than I wanted to take, anyway!)

It seems to me that it is pretty obvious that it will be really hard to be sure if Erics system is effective for some people because of the reasons he hypothesizes, or for other reasons. So. . . . . my comment addresses the very basis of the whole hypothesis.

My question is based on the assumption that CO2 levels and acidity of the blood are very closely related, due to the interchangeability of CO2 and carbonic acid. High CO2 makes the blood acidic, low CO2 makes it alkaline, pretty much instantly.

The question is: How can you get alkaline (low CO2) tissue and acidic (high CO2 blood) at the same time?
As far as I know, CO2 is only significantly produced by body cells, which means in tissue (closely associated with the "body water" that Eric talks about). My assumption from the classes I have had is that CO2 in the body is basically ALL produced by tissue metabolism, and only gets into the blood by diffusion from cells (through "body water").
If this is true, then it is impossible to use apnea to get more CO2 (acidity) in blood than in the body tissues (or body water), because it won't diffuse from tissue into blood unless the level is already higher in tissue than blood.

Someone mentioned something about this question early in the thread, but it didn't look like it got much attention.

I'm interested to hear if this makes sense or if one of my assumptions is totally off.

M

[efattah]

I disagree.

The CO2 created by the tissues diffuses into all the water in the body: blood plasma, lymph and other fluids.

If you hyperventilate for a long time, you will gradually 'clean' the water in your body of CO2, even in 'hard to get' areas.

Then, if you suddenly hold your breath, the tissues will create CO2, but other inert fluids surrounding the cells will initially be much 'cleaner' than usual of CO2. This will momentarily result in an unusual out-of-equilibrium state. CO2 acculumation during the breath-hold will be slower since you have the extra buffer of the 'clean' fluids.

My opinion....

[derelictp]

I agree Eric,

BUT; What is the best combination?

Acidic blood and alkaline body water?
Alkaline blood and normal body water?
Alkaline blood and alkaline body water?
Alkaline blood and acidic body water?
Normal blood ph and normal body water ph?

Does somebody have a clear opinion?