Static with no warm-up

[O'Boy]

I am trying to understand what lies behind this No Warm-up static. What should be better with this type of preparation opposite to the Classic Warm-up.
Facts:
My first Warm-up static is usually 1'00" Empty lung after some 10'00" Breath-up. I have to end this static due to hypoxia(ugly feeling).
The next Warm-up static is also Empty lung but... 1'45"! This one I have to end due the same hypoxia(feeling).
My question is: What has changed in my body to achieve better result in 2nd Warm-up static?
Is it:
1. My body tolerates less % of SaO2 with each next static?
or:
2. The level of SaO2 is the same after those two different statics(close to BO?, ugly feeleing) but with each next static this SaO2 is dropping much slower?

[Kars]

I think your second one is much better because your body remembers and reconises the situation, therefor kick in the energy preserving reflexes much quicker.

I only use some warmup's to turn these reflexes on, like the vains narrowing in your arms and legs.
And they useually come one much sooner than any uncomfort feeling. This safes me a lot of energy for the official attempt.
10' minute breathup? I do only 2'-3' . But I do meditate 5-30 min in advance to find my peace and prepair my body.

Good luck with the exploration.

Carlos

[jimbodiver]

SaO2 = O2 saturation, right? (Excuse me while I get educated!)

I like Carlos' suggestion that the early warmups help trigger constriction of blood vessels in legs, arms, etc....makes sense, though I don't know enough about physiology to say one way or another. I'm learning a lot from this forum!

[naiad]

Maybe for a few people the reflexes are already there for the first static, or a long warmup is needed to make them kick in. I need at least 3:00 for the first warmup, and usually 4:00. (All dry - I still haven't done over 3:46 in the pool!)

Lucia

[derelictp]

I belive that the warmups makes the body more alkaline which makes the breathing reflex less painful. The tolerance to low o2 levels may in fact decrease with the warm-ups. My feeling is that the contractions comes earlier but the hypoxic symptoms is maybe less without warmup.

I will try more and report my experiences.

[Pezman]

My guess as to why warm-ups help is that the circulatory system pretty much sends blood to the brain at a more-or-less constant rate, and will do almost anything to maintain this rate. If you cause a few brief, hypoxic episodes, I suspect that a trained body will react by diverting some blood flow from peripheral tissue to core tissue. After a good warm-up, I can definitely feel a profound change with the most pronounced symptom being that may arms, legs etc. suddenly get very cold about 3:00 into a hold.

I think that a secondary effect is that the central receptors get desensitized to the lower pH. If you have slightly acidic blood then the relative change from a breath-hold is reduced (i.e. ratio of the number of ions at the end of the hold divided by the number at start).

The downside of a warmup is that they almost certainly result in O2 deficits in tissue and that these deficits deepen with each warm-up hold.

I'm going to guess that folks that have natural talent and/or train a lot get the shift little or no wram-up and that they are already so tolerant to CO2 that they don't need any tricks to dull the central receptors.

[Jason Billows]

I'd be curious to know if the "one hold" approach is achieveing the same changes at the warm up approach, but within the timeframe of that one hold.

I'd think that if that's the case there may be a little more of a struggle while you wait for those changes to kick in, like splenic contration and blood shunting.

The big benefit I find to doing warm ups is the mental edge I get. If I jump in and have to do a long hold I'm not in the right frame of mind and my PB seems a long ways away. But, if I can do a couple of warm ups then I gradually get closer to my PB and so the mental leap isn't quite as extreme.

I think Pezman is right when he suggests that the "one hold" method works best for those that train regularly.

Jason

[O'Boy]

I've talked to friend of mine who's the best freediver in our country and he mentioned exactly the same comments as Pezman did.
- it takes natural talent and hard frequent training to get Max in first static. One needs to have built-up(with training) the same reflex as other gets after Warm-up statics.
- what stops my first warm-up static is actualy my weak psychique. I am way far from BO, but central receptors are so stimulated that I have to stop. You need a lot of training to prepare them.
- I was recently experimenting with No Warm-up statics and couldn't get past 3'00"(Contractions 1'30"!), even though my PB is over 5'00". I was out of freediving for 1/2 of the year and that, I think is my problem. Need a lot of training to be able to utilize the advantiges of No Warm-up approach.

SaO2 = O2 Saturation

Thanks for replying and sharing with us your results of experimenting.

[derelictp]

Hi,

I hit the wall trying this method for several weeks.

For me it seems that 2 warmup's is the best way to achieve my limit.

To days ago I did a try with 2 warmups for the first time for a while and I did a new dry pb of 6'16''.

There are so many variables that affects a breathhold so I can just say that with my breathup etc. today this is the best....

Doing static's without warmup's can be a good training though...

[efattah]

The warm up sequence does several things:
- Increases bicarbonate (makes you more alkaline)
- Contracts the spleen (increases the amount of red blood cells)
- Constricts blood vessels in the arms and legs
- Reduces heard rate
- Decreases metabolic rate

However, it also creates hypoxia waste products, which is not a good thing. Once you have metabolic waste in your system, then when you start the next static, some percent of your O2 goes to 'recovering' from the previous static.

For that reason, if you can get all the adaptations to happen quickly, on the first static, then you will start the static without any metabolic waste, allowing for a (possibly) longer time.

[derelictp]

Thanks Eric,

The factor you mentioned is the reason why I started with this experiment.

I am thinking that maybe my relaxation time before the breathhold without warmup was too short?

I took about 10min of relaxation/breathup.

Maybe there are other factors that made me not so successful without warmup?

Maybe the positive changes with warmups is bigger than the negative effect, (hypoxia waste products) and in total, warmups is beneficial?

Maybe there is methods to achive the 5 adaptations you mentioned without warmups?

[efattah]

derelictp,

I found a 'happy medium' to get the best of both worlds. The method I use is to do warm-ups without any breathe-up. Just one or two breaths, then hold. This makes you start with high CO2, so you don't end up with many hypoxia waste products. Also, I stop the warm-ups at SaO2 > 90%. For me, this means that no warm up can be more than 5 minutes. Still, on the last warm up I like to go for more than 5 minutes. In order to do that, and still not go below SaO2 = 90%, I 'pack' about three times every ten seconds through my snorkel; I do this only after about 4'30" or 5'00", and then stop around 6'00". This keeps the contractions going (and other adaptations), but gives a little extra O2 to prevent waste products from forming during the warm ups.

To summarize, my usual wet warm up is:
One breath, 3'30"
Rest 1'00" - 2'00"
Two breaths, 5'00"
Rest 2'00" - 3'00"
Two breaths, 6'00", packing 3 times every 10 seconds after 5'00"
Rest 5'00" - 7'00"
Go

[laminar]

Okay everyone, sorry this is going to be a long post:

I'm glad to know that Tom Sietas is not the only one doing statics at around 9 minutes. I think in the next year or two, we'll see other freedivers figuring out what works. Tom and Karl have at least a one year head start on the rest of the field.

I think we are missing the point here with all the discussion of CO2 tolerance (earlier posts on this thread). Certainly, it's important within the whole formula, but what strikes me most about Tom Sietas' 9-minute statics is that when he finishes he is in complete possession of his mental faculties when he finishes. In Vancouver, at 9'24" he was SMILING and breathing easily as his face came out of the water.

To me, this signifies that he has adapted his body to doing long breath-holds and has actually increased his capacity by a good 20-30%, rather than just making what he could do previously "easier." He still has oxygen left in the tank and his body is not disabled by hypoxia. It is a complete package, with many elements in combination, dependent on each other.

CO2 tolerance to me is a misleading concept. Here's what I think increasing CO2 tolerance means for most people:
-easier, less psychologically difficult contractions
-smaller amplitude contractions, or same amplitude, but greater time between them
-a lessened feeling of suffocation
-delayed start of contractions
-contractions do not get unbearable at the end

Notice how CO2 tolerance refers to minimizing negative sensations and effects. I believe when we get contractions, most of us feel like the breath hold is going downhill. Since contractions and the CO2 "burn" are interpreted by most as painful, unpleasant, undesireable (wow! you endure 4 minutes of contractions? how horrible!), and detrimental to the breath hold, that's why so much focus is applied to avoiding or minimizing contractions. And with this focus on what we are feeling, we choose practise and training methods that avoid this kind of discomfort, especially since they to help with achieving longer breath holds.

I think this way of seeing apnea comes from beginner courses in breath holding, in which hyperventilation is often encouraged, even if it is euphemised as "ventilations" or "a breathe-up", and progressive breath holds before going for maximum are encouraged. Everyone can identify with the progression of ten seconds at a time, and in the beginning instructors stress the learning of one's limits to be safe. What is ironic, is the possibility that if students were taught to breathe normally and do breath holds without a "warm-up" and without hyperventilation, they could indeed get a better knowledge of how apnea is affected by daily variables. For sure, in the beginning, it would be more likely that they would not black out because their tolerance for hypercapnia would be so low. But as they developed that tolerance and gained experience with longer breath holds, they would be better able to recognize the signs and symptoms of hypoxia when they start to occur(unlike the beginner who can rapidly progress well beyond the point where hypoxia will affect them with hyperventilation techniques).

Warm-ups I think are also less useful to a beginner in learning their own response to apnea because if they are relatively easy, say 2-4 minutes, these breath holds provide very little information about how they are doing for that day. Then, the maximum attempt is a shot in the dark. I have experienced this in past with static apnea. One two separate days, warms ups are fine and normal for each, but on one day, I am able to reach a good time and on another I am not. What is the point of the warm up? Did it really help me achieve the good time on the good day (I no longer believe so). Regardless, it didn't tell me anything about how well I would do on my maximum effort for that day. It is akin to a beginner diving to 20m twice and then suddenly going for 55m. Unsafe because there is no way of knowing how someone will do based on those 20m dives.

Viewing contractions and CO2 tolerance in this way prevents us from seeing what might be most important in increasing our apnea ability: specificity of adaptation.

I believe the success of Tom Sietas and Karl Pernett is due to the fact that during the course of their training they communicate to the body exactly what is required of it to achieve a maximum breath hold:

-maximum splenic contraction
(with a maximum first breath hold, the spleen would have an intense stimulus to contract as much as possible and this would be reinforced with repeated training sessions vs. warm-up style, the stimulus is not as intense as the freediver warms up with gradually more intense statics--> thus the one-time stimulus for splenic contraction is less. Additionally, in one-rep max static, the body learns that the task at hand is an long breath hold, not a short exhale static or inhale warm-up, and so the spleen reacts specifically to long one-rep max statics)

-maximum hypoxic tolerance
(How long do Karl and Tom spend at below 80% SAO2? I'll bet it is much longer than you or me. It would be interesting to note their saturations throughout the breath hold. I would guess it is around 2-3 minutes, at least. Again, this is a lot longer than any exhale static or inhale static I've ever been able to do WITHOUT hyperventilation. If you hyperventilate, I believe you are not training with specificity.)

-maximum oxygen conservation
(If each time you hold your breath, you are going for maximum, your body must necessarily adapt by anticipating this and lowering your oxygen consumption. I believe this is a huge factor for Tom's static. Whereas my saturation begins to drop rather quickly after reaching say, 70% SAO2 or 65% SAO2, I believe that his saturation decreases at a much slower rate (more linear progression, rather than a sharp, downward curve). I think that the majority of freedivers who have pbs under 6 minutes have not provided their bodies with much if any stimulus to conserve oxygen.)

-maximum vasoconstriction
(Stimulus is intense. Vasoconstrict or black out! See above)

-normal pH equilibrium to start and maximum systemic buffering of carbonic acid
(When Tom Sietas holds his breath for 9 minutes, why do his contractions start at 3-4 minutes? If he has "high CO2 tolerance" shouldn't his contractions be delayed? More than half his apnea involves contractions. I think that contractions are a sign of something else that is very complex that goes on beneath the surface. First of all, Tom Sietas' blood pH is more likely to be at an equilibrium before his breath hold than someone who has either hyperventilated or done a number of breath holds. Also, he has not accumulated any oxygen debt in his tissues or metabolic junk: clean slate. While we know that the buffering and other systemic reactions to increasing carbonic acid starts as soon as you begin to hold your breath, I wonder if it may be easier for the body to perform this important task starting from a normal resting state rather than after a few warm ups. Question: Does the body's reaction to apnea consume more oxygen or not work as well if the body is already depleted or if the blood/body pH is too acidic or too alkaline? Question: What does a late contraction really mean? If it means that the buffering and coping mechanism is delayed or hampered, then perhaps it is not such a good thing. Question: The body is not comprised of seperate systems. Hemoglobin is a buffering agent along with bicarbonate and some others blood substances. If a one-rep max static releases the most hemoglobin (with established training) it may be working in concert with other blood buffers and the effects of vasoconstriction to keep up with the accumulation of carbonic acid. One more reason not to look at elements separately and to train them all simultaneously.

The irony here, if I am right in my theories, is that static apnea will become more enjoyable as you train with maximum effort because the body will take over what needs to be done to cope with the new stress. You won't have to do CO2 tables anymore! So while many of us may opt to avoid the Tom Sietas training style because it might be arduous and mentally draining and slow to yield immediate results, those of us who stick with it may soon find that it is enjoyable to watch the body figure out what it needs to do. And I look forward to the day when I can do 3-4 minutes dives underwater or sit on the bottom for five or six minutes on my first breath hold of the day.

I can do a max constant weight dive and dyanmic apnea without a warm-up, now static apnea is the only thing left to make me into a freediver who can dive like a seal.

To summarize what I've explored above:
1. Max static attempts with no warm-up could be the best way for the body to learn how to adapt most favourably for long breath holds
2. Warm-ups may confuse the body or be simply less than optimum
3. The idea of CO2 tolerance has mislead us, there are other elements that are perhaps more important, but ultimately they are all linked
4. There are specific adaptations needed for max breath holds that probably cannot be achieved without training with maximum statics (specificity)
5. Body's reaction to pH may need to start from "rest" to be most effective (reasons unknown)

My 2 cent theory.

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

[Erik]

Originally Posted by laminar

My 2 cent theory.

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

I think it might be a million dollar theory my friend. Makes sense to me.
Cheers,
Erik Y.

[laminar]

Thanks, Erik, I guess the proof will be in the pudding (I'll let you know how I'm doing during the next year)

Here's more food for throught:

How a pure beginner could start to use the "maximum stimulus" method of static apnea training and progress to be doing maximum 100% statics on the first attempt:

Phase 1) "Maximum effort" means no warm up and going as far as comfortable, not as far as is possible. Beginner here learns how body reacts, how to hold breath despite contractions or suffocation feeling, when contractions will come, how it feels to keep going. In this stage, it is useful to perform 3-5 statics in a row, but it should be emphasized that adequate recovery is useful, but not a breathe up. The goal here is consistency, and establishing the idea that while no warm up is needed and indeed, is beneficial, frequent PRACTICE is paramount.

Once the person is more familiar and comfortable with the new sensations (time for this to happen will vary), they can proceed to phase 2.

Phase 2) "Maximum effort" here means pushing the static to 90% of maximum effort. Goal is to gain experience in more difficult stages of apnea without worrying about achieving a new personal best. New training goals can be devised such as 1) # of contractions 2) total time spent in contractions or 3) increasing the 90% time over all 4 or 5 repetitions. Again, all reps should be a equally high intensity, near to maximum. The apneist will having trouble with breathing reflex sensations and psychology and so it would be important to recognize that maximum effort could be 3 minutes or 5 minutes, depending on the person and their internal measures of "intensity." Progress may be slower and less rewarding at first, but after a while, I would expect beginners to be able to achieve 3 or 4 minute breath holds on their first attempt without too much difficulty.

Phase 3) Intermediate-Advanced. Apneist is getting to a point (after training for 6 months, a year or possibly more), where they have stimulated all the systems required for a maximum effort in the true sense of the word (splenic contraction, buffering, oxygen conservation, hypoxia tolerance) and also have the confidence to go for full 100% effort in the first static. They can or perhaps already have experienced LMC or blackout from HYPOXIA not hypocapnia by now. Emphasis switches to the first static of a set, and the number of reps is reduced to 2-3 at 95-100% effort. Apneist limits reps to breath holds in which he or she is able to maintain 95-100% effort.

Phase 4a) Performance phase: competition or record. Apneist trains in performance style leading up to a competition, with only one maximum static attempt. Attempts to build time for competition or record day.

Phase 4b) Performance phase: recreational diving. While recognizing that warm-up dives may be necessary for other reasons (chest flexibility, confidence, technique), especially while wearing a wet-suit, apneist can now see how this new level of readiness for apnea influences diving underwater.

If I were going to start this kind of training given my level, I would insert myself near the end of phase 2 and go from there.

I would also add that since it is very likely that waste products do accumulate after instense sessions (which might help increase the stimulus) I would practice in cycles of 7-10 days every couple of months, with a static session once a week (maybe) for ongoing "fitness."

What kind of physical activity would work best during this time is a whole other question.

My 4 cent theory (inflation sucks)

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC