Static with no warm-up

[naiad]

Originally Posted by laminar

Warm-ups may confuse the body or be simply less than optimum

I still don't see the reason for short warm-ups, but everyone else seems to do them.

I'll try a different training method with less hyperventilation and see what happens.

Pete, thanks for sharing your theory!

Lucia

[derelictp]

Thanks for sharing your method Eric.

Peter; Your theorys are very interesting, you may have found "something" here.

[laminar]

Eric and I are starting an "experiment" of sorts that will take at least half a year to yield results. Static cycles of 7-10 days in a row, 2 months apart. Max effort on each one.

Yesterday, was the first day (we'd been planning this for ages).

If any of you had followed my previous ideas in the "Beyond 6:30 in Static" thread, you'll know that after a couple weeks of static practice twice a week last January, I was able to make over 6'00" on the first static of the day, with a new pb of 6'49" (all times are "wet").

Anyway, I hadn't done static since training for Canadian Nationals (June 2004) and had no idea how I would do, especially going for maximum on the first one. My physical training has been minimal since then, as I've been busy with work since Worlds. Typically, I get to the pool 2-3 times a week for fin work and regular swims.

Anyway, last night I got in the water, did sub-neutral breathing through my nose for about 5 minutes and then packed and put my head under. The contractions came gently at around 3'30" and continued to build. At around 5'00" I suddenly felt my hands and feet tingle gently (blood shunt?) and I felt completely clear headed. I came up at 6'01" because of surprise more than anything and did not need any recovery. My ears did not ring, meaning I had not reached my 95%-100% limit.

I tried again, but packed too much and immediately had a cramp in my back muscles that forced me to pull up at 4'30". Tomorrow, I will try to do 3-4 statics in a row over 6'15".

Eric followed, and made 6'22" on his first try. He breathes through a snorkel face down with no hood and packs directly through the snorkel. He rested for about 4 minutes and then did sub neutral breathing for another 4 minutes. He surfaced at 7'03". He said he felt a small micro shake--I couldn't see it.

We had to leave the pool as it was closing. But all this is encouraging to me that the body makes adaptations from intense hypoxic training. I fully expected to have problems buffering out the CO2 during my first static in 6 months-but the result was completely opposite. But we both we able to reach statics close enough to our personal bests on the first effort!

What I am hoping is that after seven days of this practice, I will surpass 7'00" or even reach 7'15"-7'30", and then when we do the next 7 day session, I will start off at 6'30"-6'45", instead of 6'00". We'll see.

Lucia: I think people do warm-ups because of habit. Logic tells them that since everyone does warm-ups (until now) that that's the only way to get a god time. It is what is taught to beginners, as well, in courses everywhere. And for the majority, reaching 4'00"-5'00" is impressive enough to be proof that it works.

I think the shift in thinking will end up being that apnea training does take time:
-the apneist who takes one year training with no breathe-up and no warm-up statics will achieve adaptations that will be permanent or at least long-lasting
-the apneist who trains for immediate gain and achieves long statics through hyperventilation, gradual warm-ups, will be less successful (relative to their own potential) in the long run because the body's adaptations are not optimzed for long breath holds.

As always, the goal in my mind is to mimic the seal or dolphin, who can take a breath at any time and dive well.

Oh, yeah, in case anyone missed it, Tom Sietas just set a German national record of 175m in dynamic without fins, which is more than the world record of 166m by Stig Severinsen.

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

[naiad]

If an increase in CO2 means that more O2 from the blood can be used (Bohr effect), then maybe strong hyperventilation causes a decrease in static time.

That means putting up with more CO2 though...

Lucia

[laminar]

Hi Lucia,

Yes, I think that is correct. But "putting up with more CO2" is not perhaps as horrible as one might think once you've done some training in this way. When I have a good day and get contractions at 3'30" and remain clear all the way until the end at 6'00"-6'30" the contractions are not unpleasant at all, they are just there. On a bad day, however, they are not easy to cope with.

Yesterday's static session was a bust for me, I had the same back pain and couldn't handle any contractions.

Rest today, try again tomorrow.

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

[watts]

Pete could you fill us in on sub neutral breathing
Thanks Nathan

[Panos Lianos]

Hey Pete!

I have seen similar results. I have been training like this (no warm-up) for about 3 weeks. Yesterday, first contraction came at 3:50 and I was VERY clear till the end at 6:35. Surfaced smiling to my safety diver. I'm sure I could have pushed into 7+ at the time, but felt there is no need to over push.

One thing that I have found is that you can gradualy increase the number of packs that you do before you start, from day to day.

Panos Lianos
Athens, Greece

[naiad]

Maybe part of the problem with the conventional method is that as CO2 levels rise, this causes physical and mental tension, which burns a lot of O2, limiting the amount of time left from this point. If the CO2 is allowed to rise relatively early, while still remaining relaxed, even with contractions, this could make a much longer static possible.

Lucia

[ramstam]

I think hyperventing is a great way to get beginners to boost their confidence
by allowing them to break 4 min quickly(dry static). In order to get longer times I needed to relax and pack(with a good slow breath up) and practice
for a few days in a row. The problem I have with packing is it makes me black out, or atleast my vision gets dim. I added 2min to my static by switching
to packing from hyperventing. In three days.

The same thing happens when I dive, the first 20 meters I can't
remember,but then everything gets very clear. It's like the dive starts
a third of the way down.

[laminar]

Hey Panos!

Great stuff at the Dutch Open. I hear you're freediving full time, now. How did you manage that?
The mental clarity is what I find most encouraging about max statics on the first try. I experienced this last year when I did 6'49". I had the thought at 6'45" -"I'm going to make 7 minutes!" And then my ears started to ring, so I pulled up

Sub neutral breathing is something that I believe Eric Fattah and I started doing on inspiration (ha, no pun intended) from Seb Murat, when we started experimenting with FRC diving. The maximum inhale during sub-neutral breathing is to the neutral point, hence the name "sub-neutral" breathing.

I do it for all three disciplines because it feels nice and has some advantages. When I prepare for static, I rest my arms and chin on the edge of the pool deck and go as limp as possible, and breathe through my nose. (Eric does his sub-neutral breathing through a snorkel) Each breath is made without pushing against gravity, meaning that it takes little effort to breathe. So all breathing is done at less that half the lung's total volume. It might actually be more. The advantages of sub-neutral breathing in my opinion are that 1) you expend very little energy breathing 2) it is very, very difficult to hyperventilate with these little sips of breath 3) it is very relaxing because you are never worried about getting "a good last breath" and 4) your pulse remains very low. At first it feels as though you are hardly breathing at all. But as any good oximeter will show, it makes no difference whether you breathe like a maniac or once every 30 seconds, your saturations will be near 100%. But of course there are many negative side effects to hyperventilating.

In the ocean, I use it for all forms of diving. It is particularly effective when diving without a suit in competition.

Lucia, I think your idea about rising CO2 levels causing problems in a body that hasn't gradually adapted are good. I believe this could explain why so many freedivers have been competing in static apnea for 4 or 5 years and they have not made any progress except for fine-tuning their technique. If you look at the results from Ibiza in 2001 or Nice in 2000, you'll see many freedivers who have had similar results in 2003-2004. I think that hyperventilation limits progress in adapting to hypoxia. I'm not sure about the "why." It is also a vicious circle: A freediver who thinks she needs to do several warm-up statics and a hyperventilation breathe-up might try this new approach, but because the first static will of course not be a miracle and likely be very difficult (because she has little or no adaptation for doing things in this new way), she will perhaps find it too daunting and give up. "See," she says, "I do need a warm-up and a breathe-up." And so over the years there is little improvement.

I had this problem, too:
When I started freediving in 2000, I made 5'00" within three weeks of learning how to "breathe-up" and do successive statics. At my first competition in 2001, I made 5'23" and was amazed. Made 5'32" in Ibiza. In those days, 5'32" was a decent static for a competition. Now it is a little more than half of what Mr. Sietas can do! In that year I made 6 minutes a few times by hyperventilating (dry statics) and in the pool I managed 5'58" with a good samba.
My routine was usually two warm-ups, 3'30", 4'30" and then max. Contractions were delayed as long as 4'45" on the max effort (too alkaline!), but then things fell apart quickly in the next 45 seconds.
In 2002, no improvement.
In 2003, no improvement.
So, from 2000 to 2003, I made no improvement in apnea ability. The only improvements I made were in skill and technique and in knowing when to come up when I was too alkaline. This, I suspect is still the case for many freedivers out there.

In January 2004, after a few sambas and blackouts in the old style (5'58", 5'45"), improvement came from pushing through contractions and not hyperventilating at all (one breath every 15-20 seconds). Then I could suddenly do 6'00" easily on the first attempt with a clear mind. Another factor was that I did very difficult intervals on the rowing machine (ergometer) which increased my CO2 tolerance and buffers.

So finally, it seems I am training in a way that will have a long term gain in performance, this time the intervals don't appear to be necessary.

I may only be able to do a comfortable 7'00" next year, but it will be an improvement! I think it may be more in the end.

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

[watts]

Thank you Pete on the detailed explanation.
Nathan Watts

[laminar]

Sunday was an off day (recovering from a Christmas party!) .

Last night, I got to the pool with a headache from working at the computer all day.

I went first:
4'00" first attempt: contractions were horrible, headache worsened
5'15" second attempt: a little easier, but it was a struggle to make 5 minutes. At this point I was thinking the only good training I would get in would be pack stretches for my diaphragm.
6'17" last attempt: at 4'30" I felt like I was doomed to eek out another 5 minute static, but then at around 4'45" my hands and feet started to feel different and I got a second wind. I did not get this feeling during the first two attempts. The contractions felt fine from then on. When I came up I had ringing in my ears. I'm starting to wonder now if that ringing is not really a sign of hypoxia, but rather is primarily a sign of rising blood pressure (which caused by hypoxia or by acidic blood or both?). I've heard of studies with freedivers and how their bp goes off the scale during a long static. Does anyone have any references or ever experienced this? Another thing I noticed was that when my first signal came, I was so relaxed that I really, really did not want to move my finger. It was funny. I had a little argument in my head about it. But my hands felt so good just enveloped in water and motionless.

Eric went:
6'58" first attempt (new personal best for first static)
6'40" second attempt. Eric only took a 5 minute interval between and felt too depleted after the first one to go further.

My girlfriend Jill came to the pool, too. She is just starting out. She has never felt a contraction and her pb in the pool is 2'40". She has been anxious about going further because the "suffocation just gets worse and worse." It's interersting to me to remember how I felt the first time holding my breath to that point of a first contraction.

Jill breathed up as I do, resting on the pool edge, breathing through her nose, quietly. No forced breaths or purges.
1st static: 2'00"
2nd static: 2'20"?
3rd static: 3'01" She was not sure if she had a "contraction" at this point or not, but she did feel that the usual suffocating feeling that was previously stopping her relaxed a bit and she could keep on going. When she came up she was so happy she jumped on me. To make 3'01" without a "contraction" is a pretty amazing result (yes, I'm biased), especially as it was done without hyperventilation. She is a former competitive swimmer, though, so her buffers are probably higher than most other beginners. As always, it's great to celebrate a new personal best!

Over the holidays, we're going to use an oximeter and find out what saturation she's actually at when she gets to 3 minutes. I'm guessing it will be around 85-90% SaO2.

I really wish I could fast forward to June when we've done 3 or 4 of these sessions and know what the overall adaptations will be from this kind of practice.

Anybody else want to share their practice with no breathe up statics?

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

[jome]

Hi, just my humble contributions.

Motivated by this thread I've been doing similar experiments for a week or so. Anyway, I've never experienced ringing ears before, but in the past couple of days I get it every time. The difference is, that I've changed from "hyperventilation and full static" to no ventilation and timing only the part after 1st contraction. The statics I've done these few days can't have been more than 4-5 minutes (don't know actual time, since I don't time them), but still I get ringing ears and a slight headache from each trial and I get really warm, hot even. So at least in my part, I'd say the ringing definately comes from co2. This feeling passes within a few breaths after the hold.

It also seems that I always peak on the second try for maximizing the time of contractions. But my first hold is getting closer all the time, so maybe some day I only need one. We'll see...

One thing I've noticed is that with this kind of training, relaxation becomes easier. I think I sort of got "there" a couple of times, where after some 40 contractions, where I would usually bail, I just sort of fell into my mind and surfed them, reaching 100 for the first time today

I'm pretty anxious to get to try this in the water tomorrow for the first time.

On a side note, according my girlfriend I actually packed in my sleep last night. That's kind of freaky I was dreaming I was in a competition getting ready for a start...Sheesh. Gives whole new meaning to sleep apnea though

[Jason Billows]

Hi Pete.

Keep these posts coming. They're quite interesting and I appreciate being able to learn from the time you're putting into it seeing as I don't have the time available to turn myself into a guinepig.

When you do your sub-neutral breathing do you do any purging before you begin your static? It sounds to me as if you don't. I find that quite interesting seeing as the Dr.s who spoke at the Worlds were saying that Co2 levels were the main limiting factor to static times. They also noted that their studies showed experienced freedivers were doing longer breath holds primarily due to better purging technique, lowering their Co2 levels before a static and therefore allowing more of it to accumulate before getting close to maximum levels during the hold.

Great to hear Jill had some good statics. I think that a lack of contractions with beginners is a common thing. Julie, my wife, was doing 4 minutes before she started having contractions. When they started they were coming around 2 minutes, but as she has improved her static times the contractions come later.

I seem to recall that when I began I was doing close to 4 minutes before I started getting contractions.

Maybe it is because many beginners can't relax and their tense muscles simply don't contract in the same way. Once you get used to relaxing the body is more sensitive to those unintentional movements.

Jason

[naiad]

Originally Posted by jome

On a side note, according my girlfriend I actually packed in my sleep last night. That's kind of freaky I was dreaming I was in a competition getting ready for a start...Sheesh. Gives whole new meaning to sleep apnea though

I sometimes find myself dreaming about freediving and actually holding my breath. Once I was dreaming about doing statics, and I woke up to find myself still holding my breath. It was not uncomfortable at all, so it probably hadn't been a very long time, but it's hard to tell. Maybe my PB is longer than I think!

Lucia