Frenzel technique , I find it hard in Step #7 !!!!!

[jome]

I should clarify that I use (used to) the "ng" sound before equalizing, not during. Or actually as a part of the mouthfilling part (on negatives, right when leaving surface). But I don't actually swim around going "ng! ng!". It's also progressively closing the epiglottis. So it starts with "nnnnnnnngh", of which the "gh" part would be totally cutting off air. Would be so much easier to explain if you could hear me

When successful, it really feels kind of relaxing. Your lungs feel crushed, but equalizing is no problem and you don't have to work for it (ie use diaphragm). It really takes the "nasty feeling" out of negative dives. You'll slowly sink to the bottom and just put air in to the ears when they feel pressured. In fact, you can apply constant pressure to the very effortelssly (not "popping" but just sort of keeping them pressurized).

But I think I'm talking of the mouthfill now, not frenzel.

[O'Boy]

"Ng sound"
As I've said I have a big problem equalizing in 25m. There is no problem with Frenzel untill this depth but then the only I can perform is this "Ng". What interests me is how and where's this sound forming? The air definitelly doesn't reach the nose cavity. I can sort of feel the sound forming in my throat. Seems to me that when I use my tongue as a piston and can't open my soft palate, the air has nowhere to go but to the lungs through epiglottis(which is not properly closed).
The sound can be also formed by tongue, when pushing upwords. Why it occurs in 25m?

[bolts]

Well, thanks guys! I figured it would just take a lot more time and effort. Me, I'm an impatient person, which sadly isn't a great personality trait a lot of the time. I saw some people saying they learned the whole Frenzel technique in a hour or two, and frankly, I was getting mighty discouraged. Now that I see that some people take days/weeks to get it right, I don't feel nearly as bad.

I do the alternating nose/mouth breathing exercises and can feel the soft palate working, but actually voluntarily CONTROLLING it is a whole other issue. It is frickin' HARD! Ah well, I'll keep at it.

While I'm at it...one other question. This may be dumb, but hey, might as well ask... When it says to "squeeze" your cheeks, is it as simple as just collapsing your cheeks when they're fully expanded? Or is there something more to it?

I guess that's one of the harder things about reading stuff and trying to teach it to yourself....you try to interpret what the reader means, which for a newbie is kinda tough. It would be easier, I guess, to have an experienced "mentor" to help out and demonstrate things, but hey, clinics are only a few days of the year. I do appreciate the help from everyone here. Thanks again. Believe me, if I get it right, you'll likely be the first to know...

[jimbodiver]

I know competitive freedivers who apparenty can frenzel equalize (or similar technique) in a way that doesn't require the use of their hand to pinch their nose. I can easily frenzel, with full exhale and a number of reverse packs, but must pinch my nose...can't figure out any way to direct air to the eustachion tubes as long as my nose is "open". I was hoping that there might be some way to close my mouth, and then be able to direct air to the tubes without pinching my nose...by using the tongue as a piston. Wonder if it's just the use of backpressure from mask that allows this method....but thought maybe there's some other way to do it....maybe without even wearing a mask.

Anyone have this ability? If so, what's the proper or suggested technique?

[tylerz]

I know competitive freedivers who apparenty can frenzel equalize (or similar technique) in a way that doesn't require the use of their hand to pinch their nose.

Yes, I know people, including myself, who can do this. Pinching the nose is required to stop the air from escaping the airways, thereby allowing pressure to redirect it to the weakest link in the chain. Since the eustacian tube opening is part of the nasal airway, if you do not stop the air from escaping through it, then in the process of equalizing the tubes, you would also be wasting valuable air.

Now, the ways you can not lose the air in this process, and not pinching your nose, is to use the pressure of the water entering your nostrils, when upright. Or if you have a mask on, then using the resistance of the mask as the equivalent.

The circumstance that do lose air are, when you have no mask and are head down in the water, or if the resistance in your eustacian tubes is greater than the water in upright, or if the resistance in your eustacian tubes is greater than the resistance of the mask.

...can't figure out any way to direct air to the eustachion tubes as long as my nose is "open".

This means your not opening your eustacian tubes voluntarily and that the pressure of the mask is less than the pressure required to force the eustacian tubes open. Practice learning to voluntarily open the eustacian tubes. Look up threads on "hands-free equalizing".

Cheers,

Tyler

[laminar]

Originally Posted by bolts

I do the alternating nose/mouth breathing exercises and can feel the soft palate working, but actually voluntarily CONTROLLING it is a whole other issue. It is frickin' HARD! Ah well, I'll keep at it.

For me I found that the longer I did the mouth/nose alternating breathing, I could slow it down, from 5 mouth breaths to 5 nose breaths, 4,3,2,1 and then slow down each transition from 1 mouth breath to 1 nose breath and then I could isolate (with time) the muscular movement that put the soft palate into "nose breathing mode" and "mouth breathing mode." Then to control the soft palate, I would do nose breath, pause, relax, nose breath. That's the control of the soft palate that you need, the one that puts it in position to allow air to move into from your lungs into your mouth AND nose at the same time. When you close your throat, now you have a passage of air between sinuses/eustachian tubes and mouth. Once you can isolate the soft palate muscle in that in between mode, then go back to the Equalizing document and go through it again. Keep at it, you'll get it. Do it in a quiet place where you can hear and feel the movements. And I also think that is better to practice daily for ten minutes, rather than try to get it down all in one session of a couple of hours. Depends on you, I guess.

While I'm at it...one other question. This may be dumb, but hey, might as well ask... When it says to "squeeze" your cheeks, is it as simple as just collapsing your cheeks when they're fully expanded? Or is there something more to it?

Another way to think of it is that you are closing your jaw while holding the muscles of your cheeks close to your teeth....I think this is a little easier to realize than trying to somehow suck your cheeks in. Try it. Thinks of your cheek muscles as enveloping your jaw and teeth bones and then maintain that tension as you close your jaw (bringing lower teeth to meet upper teeth).

I guess that's one of the harder things about reading stuff and trying to teach it to yourself....you try to interpret what the reader means, which for a newbie is kinda tough. It would be easier, I guess, to have an experienced "mentor" to help out and demonstrate things, but hey, clinics are only a few days of the year. I do appreciate the help from everyone here. Thanks again. Believe me, if I get it right, you'll likely be the first to know...

This is part of the frustration and joy of freediving. There are so many things to learn about the internal workings of your own body, enough to occupy you for a lifetime! (I hope more clinics actually tackle equalizing. The ones I am familiar with do not. )

All the best,

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

[jimbodiver]

Tyler -- thanks for the reply, and comments. I guess that means there's no way to prevent pressure from mouth (tongue piston) from going into the nose (so the pressure is only there for e-tubes). That said, I realize I can use the back pressure from mask, etc. Just was wondering if I was missing some technique for closing off the nose from mouth, and still have pathway for air to the e-tubes. Guess not, eh? Thanks again....I will look at those other threads as well.

BTW, I can voluntarily open my e-tubes...using a sort of yawn or stretching of my jaw muscles (even without opening my mouth. I hear a rumbling in my ears....a sort of muscle rumble, when I do this. I also simultaneously hear the clicking of my e-tubes opening.) I can do this without any positive pressure on the tubes. But it's a bit harder to do in-water than sitting here on dry land.

[tylerz]

Hey, your welcome Jimbodiver!

Exactly, there does not appear to be any means of issolating the pressure to the tubes, in terms of the normal body.

Regarding the rumbling sound, the first thing I tell people when helping them with equalizing, is that you know you are equalizing when you can hear rumbling or your own voice in your head like the sound of a bellowing version of yourself. I usually recommend that people hum when they think they have succeeded to equalize or are uncertain. At this point the humming should change from an external sound, to a much deeper/lower internal sound.

It is a useful thing to be aware of, in checking ones equalizing. When one becomes tired or cold, often we lose sensation of our muscles, and this does happen with the eustacian tubes as well. So, even though you think you are doing the same thing, late in the winter day's dive, you can not tell if when you are opening the tubes at the surface. So, you just hum a little tune, and then you know.

So, I am assuming the rumbling you are hearing is the product of the tubes being open and hearing the sounds of your body internally. I didn't explain why everything sounds deeper/lower. It is because you have a relatively large airway open that can move a lot more air than your eardrum can, and you now receive the collective vibrations in the bodies airways coming internally, directly to the middle ear. You are not hearing through the eardrum, but instead skipping that, with an open conduit to your internal air movements (sound).

Cheers,

Tyler

[tylerz]

And lastly, if you can voluntarily open your eustacian tubes, then the equalizing hands free should be relatively easy, and losing out the mask, should not be much concern. When you open the tubes and then allow the air to be transfered past the soft palate, there is almost no pressure required for the air to transfer up the eustacian tubes, since the compression of the air in the middle ear is pulling the ear drum, which wants to return to its position. This means the ear drum actually assist in pulling the air into the middle ear. It may be such a miniscule amount but it just clarifies that the pressure required to allow air to escape the mask will be much greater than the pressure required to equalize the ear. So, just remember to open the tubes first, before attempting to pressurize the air in the mouth.

[jimbodiver]

Ty - yep, understand.

BTW, the "rumbling" I mentioned is essentially the same thing you hear when you have a BIG yawn. It seems to me that what I'm hearing is the "noise" of jaw and associated muscles straining at same time the e-tubes are open, which allows this low-magnitude "noise" to be easily heard via thru the air column that's now open directly to the eardrum via the inside of the ear, as you say. I just mentioned the rumble so as to ensure you knew how I came to conclusion that I was opening the e-tubes voluntarily (no pos pressure).

[kpk]

Tylerz and anyone else , please

Can you describe exactly , in a few words , the way that Frenzel technique works. I mean , where you dive the ear drums are compressed inwards and then you have to make them decompress outwards etc.

Thanks

[tylerz]

- mouth is filled with air, epiglottis closed.
- pressure of water on eardrum compresses air on opposite side of eardrum (the middle ear).
- desire to alleviate uncomfortable pressure on eardrum occurs.
- soft palate is set to neutral position.
- nasal and mouth airways are now connected airways with equal air pressure.
- the eustacian tube muscles are flexed open, for those with voluntary muscle control. This muscle is connected to the soft palate and when controlled causes the upper part of the soft palate to rise. You can feel this if you curl your tongue back (way back) to the roof of your mouth as you voluntarily equalize.
- the eustacian tube opening, at base of the nasal airway, has equal pressure air in it as well.
- the purposeful diminishing of airspace in the mouth, takes place, forcing the air out of the mouth.
- the air now exerts more pressure than previously on the airways.
- the air will flow to equalize the pressure throughout the connected airways.
- the pressure will stretch, push, break down, the weakest areas of resistence to its pressure.
- if the eustacian tubes are open, the equalizing of this pressure would have already caused the eardrum to return to position, as the air filled the middle ear.
- if the eustacian tubes were not open, hopefully they will be the weakest location, if you wish for a successfull equalization. The air pressure will squeeze them into an open position.
- the air is pressurized a little more until the eardrum actually flexes outward past its resting position, to maximize the volume of air in the middle ear, and allow a longer time before next required equalization.

That is it in a nutshell.

[jome]

A lightbulb just went on over my head...
Earlier I wrote about what a shame it was you couldn't hear me. Never afraid of being embarassed, I went ahead and recorded myself. But all of a sudden all these different noises and ideas kept popping up, so I wrote a little "vocal tutorial".

Maybe it's nonsense, or maybe it'll actually help someone. You be the judge.
And please, suggest more! I've already benefitted greatly from Tyler's suggestions (bottle sucking and humming while learing to control e-tubes).

You can view the frist draft here.

[kpk]

Tylerz
Thanks a lot for the analysis. It is very helpfull , as always.

Jome
Your draft is marvelous. Exactly what I needed. Controlling the eustachian tubes is the major point.
What about moving the ears , as an exercise ? What do you think about this ?
And another one exercise , I think may work. Prepair your self to swallow , clam the muscles on your neck (back side of your neck) , try to swallow BUT DON'T SWALLOW. Stop one click before swallow. Jaw moving maybe help. I can't explain it better. Maybe someone else can. I think it works for me.

Please , post more things about controlling the eustachian tubes.
Thanks a lot

[tylerz]

HAHAHA Way to "go out on a limb", Jome!!! That was very fun.

But really, good work... Not only creative but also well written. Although to my disappointment you perfectly demonstrated the humming as it shouldn't sound, and then it seems the link is missing for what it will sound like?

Cheers guys!