Fast and Correct Breathe up vs. Hyperventilation: how to distinguish?

[azapa]

Here is one that always bothers me bobbing around in the Ocean:

Am I doing a correct and fast breathe up, or am I dipping in to Hyperventilation territory?

I use my Suunto to time 2x down time, I wait, body relaxed, breathing deeply through my snorkel, or sometimes, face up. How will I know if I am correctly replenishing, or instead fooling with my CO2 triggers? Typically, with my standard breathe up, I feel ready to go again at 1x downtime, the other 1x is a boring, Suunto looking wait.

I should probably add that my typical dives are 1:00 to 1:30 in about 20M of water. I am fit, but not very experienced.

In pool work I have deliberately hyperventilated, so know the slightly giddy feeling. But don't notice it in the ocean. But then again, so many others senses are in play I doubt I would.

Thanks for the advice..

[trux]

My personal opinion is that the best way to avoid hyperventilating is not trying to control breathing at all. The body will take care about it alone better. Instead of it concentrate on relaxation.

[azapa]

Trux: Good point! thanks. I guess i concentrate too much of quickly ridding the body of the accumulated bad stuff. I should just bob around and relax, breathing naturally until my 2x dive time is up. I will focus on not focusing

[Skywalker]

Distinguish? hmm I personaly have to say that even with quite slow breathing patterns you still can be in hyperventialting areas. Especialy if you are trained to exchange as much air as possible from your lungs and have a possible minimum stay in them during breaths.

I can get hyperventialting tingles in the fingers a breathrates below 20 sometimes. So I shorten my breathup time but increase the mental preperation (relaxing) time.

Robert

[cdavis]

Hi azapa,

A good question and hard to answer, too individual. Skywalkers point is well taken, very easy to overdo it. A large number of divers overbreathe without knowing it.

Here's my experiance, maybe its a helpful example, but don't assume it is the same for you.

I can't just relax and breath "normally", overbreath every time. I've gone to a breathing pattern that insures a relatively high co2 level. After the initial recovery breaths, 1 second inhale, slow exhale until feeling the urge to breathe(for me, this works up to 20-25 seconds), 2-3 times dive time, followed by 20 seconds or less of relaxed, mostly diaphramic purge breaths and go. Total surface interval is in the range of 3-4 times down time in 20-35 m. After a while, I've learned to recognize a level of relaxation and readiness that makes for a long and comfortable dive. This system gets me to a consistant level of "high" co2, the short set of purges knock off the edge without blowing off too much co2. Note, purges on top of overbreathing are a bad idea. You have to be careful with them. Many divers object to purging, for good reason, but IMHO it depends how its done. Also probably is important to consider what type of hunt, aspeto vs chase. I'd be more careful with purges if doing aspeto. For your own info, I'd suggest researching the issue.

You may find that this pattern takes a little longer, but thats ok, it makes the surface less boring and longer is considerable safer.

On surface interval, I used to dive a pattern very similar to yours, surface interval slightly longer than down time. However, after diving with people who use very long surface intervals and watching their results, I've discovered that longer works better, at least for me.

Hope this helps a little.

Connor

[amihov]

I in my case it is different. I am not trying to avoid hyperventilation but just to control it. I have a sweet spot when my head starts to spin that means that i have just past that point. So in this case i wait 10 to 20 sec just so i get back on track and then i am ready for dive. I have notice that if i have past the sweet point i have problems whit swimming it feels like i am out of energy and i feel sleepy during the dive. The best thing is just to experiment in the pool when you have someone watching you.

[trux]

Originally Posted by amihov

I in my case it is different. I am not trying to avoid hyperventilation but just to control it. I have a sweet spot when my head starts to spin that means that i have just past that point. So in this case i wait 10 to 20 sec just so i get back on track and then i am ready for dive. I have notice that if i have past the sweet point i have problems whit swimming it feels like i am out of energy and i feel sleepy during the dive. The best thing is just to experiment in the pool when you have someone watching you.

That's a relatively safe way to heaven's (or hell's) gates. Hyperventilation is the most favorite trick of beginners with no experience and with no theoretical background, because it's an easy way how to prolong the comfort part of the dive. It really works fine. Even way too much fine. So well that one day you may never come back up to the surface.

The problem with it is that hyperventilation in no way delays the hypoxia. In contrary: by hyperventilating you set the brain into an immediate hypoxia because the carotid arteries supltying the brain react on the low level of CO2 by a strong vasoconstriction, while letting the periphery blood vessels fully dilated, hence consuming the precious oxygen you'll need in a while.

And while during a normal breath-hold (without any hyperventilation), the increasing CO2 level triggers strong oxygen-saving diving response, after the hyperventilation, the body takes much longer time before it gets into that state (if it gets there at all).

So although after hyperventilation the breath-hold definitely feels easier, you are getting hypoxic much faster, and especially you get no warning signs about it. You may be lucky to survive dozens or even hundreds of such dives, but you are pre-programed to die soon if go on with this method. You better learn diving without hyperventilation and endure the discomfort - your performance will boost, while still keeping better security margin.

[Skywalker]

this could get an interesting thread. I for myself would say that a lot of pros do hyperventilation as well but as well in somewhat "controled" forms. I for myself think it is somekind of technique without competetive freediving might be barely where it is now. Hyperventilating prolonges the start of urge to breathe and that urge does a good part in using up oxygen in form of contractions or general uneasiness. I would not recommend hyperventilating on non competetive dives and also with a good buddy while on training.

Robert

[azapa]

Originally Posted by amihov

I in my case it is different. I am not trying to avoid hyperventilation but just to control it. I have a sweet spot when my head starts to spin that means that i have just past that point. So in this case i wait 10 to 20 sec just so i get back on track and then i am ready for dive. I have notice that if i have past the sweet point i have problems whit swimming it feels like i am out of energy and i feel sleepy during the dive. The best thing is just to experiment in the pool when you have someone watching you.

Hi Amihov; my point, and fear, is that I do not notice hyperventilation too well in the ocean. Looking for fishies, the waves, cold, sound etc. In the pool, with less "inputs" I can feel it easily. I have done some dives in the ocean that felt way too long, and the exhaustion on returning to the surface after those dives is always noticeably worse. I sure I had hyperventilated without noticing before those dives.

Connor's reply (thanks) is just what I was looking for, some recipe to try, although a little tough. I will print it, plastify, and strap to my wrist this weekend to try

Cheers!

[laminar]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

this could get an interesting thread. I for myself would say that a lot of pros do hyperventilation as well but as well in somewhat "controled" forms. I for myself think it is somekind of technique without competetive freediving might be barely where it is now. Hyperventilating prolonges the start of urge to breathe and that urge does a good part in using up oxygen in form of contractions or general uneasiness. I would not recommend hyperventilating on non competetive dives and also with a good buddy while on training.

Robert

Hyperventilation is a Russian roulette, as trux rightly points out. I know many "pros" who get burned because active hyperventilation is a part of their breathe up. One of the primary reasons why it is dangerous to have purges and active breathing in your preparation for a deep dive is that we tend to naturally breathe more frequently when anxious about going deep. Those divers who use hyperventilation rely on a very delicate balance of ventilations. Add the extra anxiety and it falls apart. I've seen this happen so many times at every level, and to a well known World Record holder.

I would never recommend hyperventilation in any case, whether competitively or not.

You really don't want to experience a hard dive after having hyperventilated. This is how it usually goes: the descent feels great! no tingling in the lungs, not feeling of being too deep. You turn around and still nothing. Then closer to the surface (and hopefully you are close enough) you suddenly get a huge mother contraction of the diaphragm. This is no ordinary CO2 contraction. I would call it a hypoxic contraction. Then you know you are screwed. Or you've already started to fade out. This is the story of overbreathing that I hear over and over again. If you want to see for yourself, do a max static in the pool with a good spotter and you'll likely experience the same feeling. In the pool, you'll notice the buzzing in your arms and legs and then suddenly when the contractions hit you, it really sucks.

It is a problem to know whether you are hyperventilating or not. My solution is a combination of intermittent breath holds and sub-neutral natural breathing. Sub neutral breathing = tidal volume = easy breathing = taking breaths without actively using the muscles of the rib cage and thorax to take a breath, as follows:

Surface from the dive:
--hook breath and hold (5 - 10 seconds)
--deep breaths, preferably through the nose to recover (10-20 seconds)
--face down with snorkel:
sub-neutral breathing 4-6 breaths /min
with 20 second holds every 3-4 breaths (I don't time the holds, they tend
to happen naturally, now)
--when I've rested enough (usually 1.5 - 2x previous dive time), and I feel "good" again, then I inhale fully, then exhale and dive.

That's my usual breathing pattern that has evolved over the years to avoid overbreathing.

Another important thing about avoiding purges or active ventilations is that if you do use them it becomes very difficult to calibrate your sensations of well-being underwater. You'll be throwing in a lot of misleading data into the mix. When I dive, I can be fairly certain that feeling the urge to breathe early in the dive is usually the result of me wasting energy in the descent or not being sufficiently rested. If that's the case, I abort the dive (I'm talking recreational diving).

One of the reasons I much prefer to dive FRC these days is that their is much less of a reason to hyperventilate. Inhale divers create a lot of CO2 on the descent while overcoming the buoyancy of their lungs, especially if they pack. This tends to cut the dives short. What's the apparent solution? Reduce the urge to breathe and extend the dive, especially the comfortable phase. There be dragons.... The FRC descent if done properly creates very little CO2.

Whether you pack, inhale, partially inhale or exhale for your dives, part of learning to freedive safely is the find a way to dive without having to cover up inefficiencies with hyperventilation and purges. Many divers are guilty of the that, because it's not easy.

Pete

[azapa]

Pete: thanks for the great info. I can't believe I have gone a year in this sport without considering these rather important details.

Dummies question (sorry): what is a "purge" a full exhale?

Thanks

[laminar]

A purge is a rapid exhalation, usually through pursed lips, and it makes quite a loud exhale or whistling sound. Basically, you purge CO2 very fast with purges.

[naiad]

Originally Posted by laminar

Then closer to the surface (and hopefully you are close enough) you suddenly get a huge mother contraction of the diaphragm. This is no ordinary CO2 contraction. I would call it a hypoxic contraction. Then you know you are screwed. Or you've already started to fade out.

I once mentioned this, but deleted it because of complaints that I was implying that there is a reliable warning of hypoxia. I never said that. What I meant is that sometimes, and only sometimes, I experience 'hypoxic contractions' if I am too close to the limit. Sometimes it does not happen at all, so it is not in any way useful as a warning of hypoxia. This has only happened occasionally, and I try to avoid it.

Lucia

[azapa]

I too have heard of this "kick in the chest" contraction from spearos who have messed up extracting a caved fish or generally spent too long down. I have never felt it, and don't really want to. The whole contraction issue seems very personal, some report to never have them! The whole thing about blackouts is their unpredictability. No warning.

[naiad]

For me, contractions are very variable - usually I get them, but sometimes I have done a hard CO2 table without a single one.