Free Diving Schools

[diveoceanos]

Originally Posted by Stavros

Dear diveoceanos,

So you are qualified to write a FREEDIVING course manual???

Nowhere in your qualifications do you mention anything about you actually being involved in freediving... (and sorry but the only similarity scuba diving and tech diving share with freediving is that they take place in the water - apart from that point most things are not that similar)

And to make matters simple ... when you decided to get involved with scuba diving (professionally) did you get together with a few friends with similar interests and start your own organisation or did you become part of an existing diving organisation???

From your qualifications it is obvious you did the later.

My humble opinion is that you should follow the same approach with freediving ...

http://www.hotweb.se/aspportal1/code...ryID=4&actID=3

Cheers Stavros (Kastrinakis)

Yiasou Stavros,

As you know pretty well there is a difference between SCUBA diving and Free diving. You are absolutely right here. Why do you intentionally ommit the fact that this is going to be a team work? I am just an other brick in the wall...

With all due respect to AIDA and all other organisations. We belong to an other agency and we don't want to become certificate collectors. We just want everything we teach under the same umprella if you prefer. There are also other personal reasons for any individual ( I am not speaking for myself) that do not want to become AIDA instructors. Ask them instead.

As a matter of fact, after going through a number of course materials from Greek agencies we realised that there are areas for improvement. This is what my team is aiming at. To make an other course outline, but yet, according to our view a little different. We are not going to invent the wheel from scratch! I understand the objection though, of the current players in the field. As with every other aspect of our life, people who dominate an area, tend to seek exclussivity! Correct? And they engage in offensive behaviour which is actually a defensive action. I am not underestimating you or AIDA or anyone else.

Now you asre asking why I decided to join PADI and NAUI instead of starting my own organisation? As you know SCUBA diving organisations are older than you and me. AIDA started when? Also Free diving is still in its developmental age (just because it is relatively new) compare to SCUBA diving where the general situation leaning towards a more standardised practice. Correct?

[diveoceanos]

Originally Posted by samdive

The courses have already been developed - I wrote most of them initially (I am a PADI Course Director and an AIDA Instructor Trainer) and since then, they have been developed further by a team of the most experienced AIDA Instructors

The system already exists. If you want to use it, I suggest you become an AIDA Instructor. Why re-invent the wheel?

Sam I didn't know there is something ready from PADI if that's what you mean. Could you please clarify? Is it something like a dinstictive specialty? Would you recommend that?

[samdive]

There is nothing formal from PADI but a number of people, including myself, have Distinctive Specialties approved

however, part of having my Distinctive Specialties approved was being able to prove that I was a licensed instructor with AIDA

and no, I am not prepared to share my Distinctive Specialty outlines!

The general system I was referring to, that is a lot more developed than any Distinctive Specialty is the AIDA system

[diveoceanos]

Originally Posted by samdive

There is nothing formal from PADI but a number of people, including myself, have Distinctive Specialties approved

however, part of having my Distinctive Specialties approved was being able to prove that I was a licensed instructor with AIDA

and no, I am not prepared to share my Distinctive Specialty outlines!

The general system I was referring to, that is a lot more developed than any Distinctive Specialty is the AIDA system

OK. I didn't ask you to share your Distinctive Specialty outlines though... I wanted just a clarification on what you meant, at your wish and if you wish on the following:

"The courses have already been developed - I wrote most of them initially (I am a PADI Course Director and an AIDA Instructor Trainer) and since then, they have been developed further by a team of the most experienced AIDA Instructors".

I thought you were referring to PADI. I sense that this is annoying for you, and I do apologise for any inconvenience! However, there was no reason for you to respond to this thread at first hand. Thanks for clarifying anyway!

[samdive]

I wrote the courses for AIDA, not PADI

Spent a few years trying to get PADI to develop freediving but with no joy so far

[island_sands]

Originally Posted by diveoceanos

Yiasou Stavros,


As a matter of fact, after going through a number of course materials from Greek agencies we realised that there are areas for improvement. This is what my team is aiming at. To make an other course outline, but yet, according to our view a little different. We are not going to invent the wheel from scratch! I understand the objection though, of the current players in the field. As with every other aspect of our life, people who dominate an area, tend to seek exclussivity! Correct? And they engage in offensive behaviour which is actually a defensive action. I am not underestimating you or AIDA or anyone else.

Which Greek agencies? I was unaware that Greece had several freedive training agencies. Which are they?

Freediving is not that much of a new sport. Read your history and you will see that people were freediving before scuba and the physics of freediving has been studied since days before the late Jacques Mayol. Freediving history dates some 4500 years back, and the science of it started with guys like Mayol, Cousteau, Maiorca... Records in freediving started in the 1940s... perhaps you could watch the Big Blue, even that will give you a little history. Also these records were staged by CMAS at that point.

Who is engaging in defensive behaviour? The concern of those who have expressed views here are only of SAFETY, and when some newcomer with little or no freediving experience suddenly has an epitome and wants to write a new freediving manual based on his scuba and pharmaceutical experience, alarms are raised.

No-one is afraid of competition. Bring it on. However, if you check out the freediving agencies and you see the personalities that are running them, e.g. Kirk Krack/Mandy Cruickshank, Martin Stepanek, AIDA (board of members with several record holders and renowned international instructor trainers), when a new unknown person comes along and says he wants to write a manual and start teaching people a small shadow of doubt is naturally going to cross people's minds.

The structure of AIDA is not for certificate collection. Like PADI, NAUI, it is a means of training people gradually up the ladder as they gain experience. As a PADI MSDT you will be well aware how this works.

In a previous thread you mentioned market research. Research is not copying and pasting someone else's course outlines. It is research into the freediving world consisting of statistics, sales, numbers of students who get certified a year, men/women %tages, etc etc. The outlines should be written by your own research into freediving physics and then written based on your past experiences with teaching freediving. I dont understand how someone who has never instructed freediving or has little freediving experience can write an instructor manual and course outlines to then go out and teach.

If Al Tillman knew what you were doing he would roll in his grave. May he R.I.P.

[diveoceanos]

Apparently you haven't read all my posts above. I would rather prefer to answer to your concerns about safety with some of my personal values:

It is more interesting to work as a team member rather than being a solo performer.

Challenging situations make our life more interesting.

It is always better to listen carefully what other people have to say and to strive to have a complete understanding of the situation before we talk.

Change is constant

Acquiring and sharing as much knowledge as possible is a lifestyle no matter if it is part of your job or not.

__________________________________________________ ______________

Yes, free diving is old. Science is old. AIDA aims at standardising the somehow free style in the education today, and managed to come up with standards and guidelines for competitions and safety during competitions. But simply you may not ignore the fact that free diving agencies like AIDA formed officially on the December, 1999. During these years they have done a lot but yet it is too early to believe that it is the one and only way.

You mentioned history. Just like many other cases in history including the history of Nitrox diving and the history of Medicine it self. Medicine started with people knowing "secrets" and sharing with their students. Today all scientists in the medical field publish their findings and report their case studies in medical magazines so other people can follow the progress and contribute to the evolution! Nitrox has been considered a corporate secret for oil companies working in the north sea in the 60s.

You are questioning our safety approach and worry about it. So beat. I can do nothing about your fears as I was always in favour of the belief that if one has this kind of problems one should seeks the help of a professional in this field.

Furthermore there is no single course outline that has been writen based on personal findings and knowledge. Check what you teach as an AIDA instructor and let the others know how much of this information is original. Maybe the haldane effect, or the Bohr effect, or probably the diving reflex, the mammalian reflex, or perhaps the adaptation of human beings to withstand hypoxia / reoxygenation, or maybe the gas laws? Valsava maneuveur maybe? Or buoyancy? Or maybe the guidelines on how to select a wetsuit and fins? Or maybe you invented a way on how to measure lung capacities and functional volumes. If Henry and Boyle knew that you are claiming ownership of their theories would probably laugh in their grave! Keep dreaming and continue your fight against dangerous approaches!

[island_sands]

Originally Posted by diveoceanos

Apparently you haven't read all my posts above. I would rather prefer to answer to your concerns about safety with some of my personal values:

i am certainly reading your posts above. Which are the Greek freediving agencies that you mention?

[diveoceanos]

Originally Posted by island_sands

i am certainly reading your posts above. Which are the Greek freediving agencies that you mention?

I have no intention of metnioning any names. Do you really expect an answer? There is no intention of creating any conflict. And of course analysing the course materials of any agency in a forum like this is only a foolish and selfish behaviour. Like I said there are areas for improvement. That would be enough for now.

[harbour seal]

Originally Posted by Stavros

sorry but the only similarity scuba diving and tech diving share with freediving is that they take place in the water - apart from that point most things are not that similar

that is funny stuff stavros, funny stuff.

Originally Posted by island_sands

Who is engaging in defensive behaviour? The concern of those who have expressed views here are only of SAFETY, and when some newcomer with little or no freediving experience suddenly has an epitome and wants to write a new freediving manual based on his scuba and pharmaceutical experience, alarms are raised.

sands - hear, hear, amen sister!
---

here is a question for you diveoceanos:

first, imagine the head of a established freediving school. this person is even a recognized master of freediving, including practice, teaching and training. for argument's sake let's say it is umberto pelizzari who actually wrote a book called 'Manual of Freediving: Underwater On a Single Breath'.

now, one day umberto has a great idea of adding scuba classes to his established freediving school, in order to attract more customers.

as a matter of fact, after going through a number of course materials from Greek agencies umberto realized that there are areas for improvement. he is not going to invent the wheel from scratch! furthermore there is no single course outline that has been written based on personal findings and knowledge.

umberto's university background in relative subject, further education and training with a number of pharmaceutical companies for about 9 years, individual daily study with an accumulated study time of more than 10000 hours in relative subjects, and an active FREEDIVING diving professional. this scuba stuff is a piece of cake after all that!

incredibly, umberto has discovered problems with their approach after just reading the manuals. in addition, umberto's qualifications are crystal clear, he wrote the manual for freediving after all. if that isn't enough, he is the director of an entire school and has trained many other instructors.

did you know that scuba was only invented sixty years ago, how complicated can it be?

---

so, would you say our famous freediver is qualified to write the outline for these scuba classes? does this seem reasonable to you?

note: umberto is used only in the hypothetical sense, i have no idea whether he has any actual scuba knowledge or not.

[diveoceanos]

Originally Posted by harbour seal

that is funny stuff stavros, funny stuff.




sands - hear, hear, amen sister!
---

here is a question for you diveoceanos:

first, imagine the head of a established freediving school. this person is even a recognized master of freediving, including practice, teaching and training. for argument's sake let's say it is umberto pelizzari who actually wrote a book called 'Manual of Freediving: Underwater On a Single Breath'.

now, one day umberto has a great idea of adding scuba classes to his established freediving school, in order to attract more customers.

as a matter of fact, after going through a number of course materials from Greek agencies umberto realized that there are areas for improvement. he is not going to invent the wheel from scratch! furthermore there is no single course outline that has been written based on personal findings and knowledge.

incredibly, umberto has discovered problems with their approach after just reading the manuals and umberto's qualifications are crystal clear, he wrote the manual for freediving after all. if that isn't enough, he is the director of an entire school and has trained many other instructors.

it is just scuba after all. did you know that scuba was only invented sixty years ago, how complicated can it be? umberto's university background in relative subject, further education and training with a number of pharmaceutical companies for about 9 years, individual daily study with an accumulated study time of more than 10000 hours in relative subjects, and an active FREEDIVING diving professional. this scuba stuff is a piece of cake after all that!

---

so, would you say our famous freediver is qualified to write the outline for these scuba classes? does this seem reasonable to you?

note: umberto is used only in the hypothetical sense, i have no idea whether he has any actual scuba knowledge or not.

Well yes, he is entitled to do whatever he thinks is a step forward. There is no law that would take him to the court.

And of course Umberto has in depth knowledge of diving. Let him do it. Let him create a team with experienced SCUBA educators who think that there are areas for improvement in the current educational systems, let him input his knowledge and experience, blend it with that of other professionals and then evaluate his team's end product. How is that?

[ADR]

I love it when yet another character turns up from the world of scuba to save us from ourselves and our ignorant freediving mystic ways. Maybe it happens everytime a scuba club runs a club night and features the Big Blue or something similar.

The two worlds have little in common and I have spent much time in both. Freediving is a sport whereas scuba is a pastime/recreation.

[diveoceanos]

Originally Posted by ADR

I love it when yet another character turns up from the world of scuba to save us from ourselves and our ignorant freediving mystic ways. Maybe it happens everytime a scuba club runs a club night and features the Big Blue or something similar.

The two worlds have little in common and I have spent much time in both. Freediving is a sport whereas scuba is a pastime/recreation.

It is amazing how people still did not get the picture or they have a tendency to read selectively. Re-writing, for the Nst time. :

A group of experienced FREEDIVING Instructors, along with some people with medical backround, together with some people that know how to write a course outline according to an agency standards, and a pharmacist (that's me), created a team, all sharing in common their love and passion for diving expressed their wish to write a course outline. The invitation for anyone who thinks have anything to contribute is open.

Please do not put words in my mouth that never been used!

It is only strange how people react to this initiative, just because they want to keep a dead-end discussion on going!

Cheer up!

[ADR]

Well in the interests of not reading selectively, I would like you to clarify if these words are from your organisations website. If they are then you really are a long way from the public statement of your organisations directions and expertise. I suggest you should stick to SCUBA and draw on existing expertise (AIDA, F.I.T, PFI etc) for any clients and customers that are interested in Freediving Education. Any of those groups I'm sure would partner with you and assist you.

"Okeanos is a newly formed company started two years ago as an education centre for sport SCUBA diving. It also deals with imports and sales/distribution of SCUBA diving gear. The friendly approach to its customers soon resulted in the formation of Oceanos Diving Club where people may meet and organise their diving activities. Hence one may find in Oceanos all essential Es for sport SCUBA diving, which are: Equipment, Education and Experiences."

[shoutatthesky]

Okay then Oceanos, seems like your getting quite a lot of flack here so let me help you clarify.
From reading your posts I gather your intention and your role within this company is as a coordinator of a new branch covering freediving training.
You admit that you have little or no freediving experience, but a group of other instructors within your organisation do.
The purpose of your 'project' is to gather information from other agencies, and then using your own background in, and knowledge of diving physiology, as well as the combined knowledge of the experienced freedivers in your group, you plan to write a formal document that lays out the structure of the freediving education your company will provide.
Am I correct?

I think you must understand the point of view of people like Sam and Sara. They are both highly trained SCUBA and AIDA instructors. I think their concern is not of competition from competing agencies but that unknowledgable people will be compiling other organisations' systems - systems they don't understand - and then carrying out the dangerous exercise of teaching people things they don't really understand themselves thereby putting people at risk and giving freediving an undeserved reputation as a dangerous activity.

You can read all the books you can find, watch all the movies and video footage available, surf the internet and read all the subjective views on freediving you like, but until you have an in depth, personal experience based knowledge then I can't see how you can really do better than what AA, PFI, FIT or AIDA have already done.

(BTW - you can certainly reinvent the wheel. It may have started as a barely round stone disc with wooden axles but that would hardly suffice on an F1 car would it now?)