Free Diving Schools

[Nikkey]

Hi Sean,
I see what you and ADR are saying, the whole being qualified thing is tricky. How does any new agency deal with this? I am not sure, as they don't have reputation on their side yet unless they start with well known freediver(s).
To me a qualified instructor means well experienced/skilled and knowledgable in everything from safety to technique and everything in between. Also someone who knows how to teach.
But you have to be your own judge when signing up for a course if it is right for you and if you trust the credentials. This applies in every sport or hobby.
What makes diveoceanos agency's instructors qualified I cannot tell you though, that would be a question for them.

[ADR]

Hi Nikkey - I think you are right and the problem here is that he won't disclose who he is or who the "experienced freedivers" are that claims to be teamed up with

[laminar]

Hello all you lovely people!

What an amazing thread. So interesting and full of information...

What I find interesting, above and beyond diveoceanos' suspected lack of forum etiquette (remaining anonymous, etc...), is the general resistance and suspicion of his motives and those who feel threatened by being asked to share information.

First, though, is it our moral duty to ensure that no "unqualified" people pose as instructors? Perhaps. If it will prevent a bad freediving accident. I guess it is his fault for not sharing his qualifications and identity. But as Nikkey points out, it sounds like he's doing research and not intending to teach himself. Market research is not just numbers, it is about gathering as much information about your competitors as possible, including their instructor manuals, if possible. If you were competing with other restaurants, for example, you'd eat their food, look at the menus (and the paper they are printed on), inspect their washrooms, and look up the nose of the servers to see if there's any hair. Not unusual at all.

As for qualifications, who verified Kirk's qualifications as an instructor in the early days? I guess the only people who did were Tanya Streeter and Mandy-Rae Cruickshank. I remember when Mandy was diving to 30m and knew very little about freediving. Come to think of it, I remember when Kirk knew very little about freediving! He just happened to know more than most. Yet, most of you on this thread are promoting PFI and similar organizations as if they are the establishment! PFI is enjoying great success, but it's only been 6-7 years or so.

Sure, most people took it for granted that someone who taught a world record holder or two would be the person to teach them how to spearfish better or more safely or enjoy freediving. As it happens, Kirk is a great teacher and motivator. But he had to build up a reputation first. In the beginning, it wasn't easy for him!

To answer your question, Sam, about why would anyone want to start a completely different agency and not become an AIDA instructor, I think the answer is quite simple: to do things differently. It sounds like diveoceanos, whoever he may be, has in mind what has been done in other sports and activities like yoga, windsurfing, swimming, etc... Videos! Perhaps they will have problems with this in terms of liability. But I can purchase a paragliding video no problem. So there are precedents. And the proof will be in the pudding.

I also find it interesting about those of you who are instructors not wanting to share instructor info. Perhaps diveoceanos rubbed you the wrong way. I've encountered this before in the freediving world and find it mystifying. Perhaps it is a hold over from the great marketing wars between the scuba agencies? I really don't know. In my view, you promote your courses by the content and your skill as an instructor and happy testimonials, not just by the name of your agency. Maybe my point of view is too small time. But that's how I make purchasing decisions on that sort of thing. I want to know the details of what I'm getting into.

The reason I mention it is that I am a certified teacher/coach of the Total Immersion swimming program. Total Immersion Swimming What's interesting about this best-selling and rapidly growing approach is that the training outline is available everywhere. It is so readily available in books, on the internet, on youtube, on the TI forum (not restricted), that many other swim coaches and triathlon coaches use the same terminology and drills in their own teaching. They don't always give proper credit, but the end result is that most people in the target market (ew, yuck, a marketing term) know that it all comes from Total Immersion. I've made a bit of an assumption, but in terms of my own marketing, it has held true.

The question is, why don't you AIDA instructors publicize your methods and course content? It would allow potential students to get a better idea of what's in store for them should they take your course. Umberto's got it figured out. Put all of his course content into a book! Now I can read the book and assume that much of it would be covered in a course. Cool. And then I know that Umberto and his AA instructors will add something extra to the course, giving it even more value.

So, yes, diveoceanos needs to fess up for the edification of DB forum denizens. But I think what he is doing is fundamentally sound. If he is misleading us about the qualifications of his team, then he'll probably fail, anyway. So no big deal.

And you guys, the freediving market potential is HUGE! I just don't think anyone has found the right marketing approach. For what it's worth, I don't think diveoceanos has found it either.

But I could be wrong.

Pete

[island_sands]

Peter, i think also you'll find that AIDA requests their material not to be reproduced or distributed without authorisation. (Copyright). Diveoceanos could approach them, or PFI, or FIT, directly and ask for assistance.

That has been suggested to him.

[laminar]

Very true!

[cebaztian]

Yes, lovely threat - I always like a bit of heat in the conversation.

- The man just asked for an outline - the kind that any potential student can find on a webpage where freediving courses are being sold (he should have looked elsewhere, like he finally did).

- If Aida (and the representatives here) had more "selfesteem" there would be no need to be so defensive (guarding territory). Anyone who believes in there own system should welcome competition.

- Aida would benefit from competition.

- Knowledge is nothing that by fault comes with a certificate. It is anyones possibility to learn from the original source. From the sea, from ones own body (and a little reading of books and on internet is never bad :-))

Sebastian
freediving in europe

[jome]

I for one would like some competition

The more quality information out there the better. Personally I don't care who or what is delivering it.

That said - I believe in the AIDA system and choose to work within that. But having good quality competitive systems would only benefit us all. Something to measure ourselves against. Of course that does not mean I like to see someone just copying all the material produced by AIDA but I don't believe that was what was being asked for.

For me the only goal is to make awareness and knowledge of freediving spread as far and in as good quality as possible. A good quality competitive goal would further that objective, so I wish you good luck in your effort oceanos!

[diveoceanos]

Diveoceanos.pdf

Here is one introduction of the business me. I suppose you are not care if I am married, how many instructors, students I teach, or what is my opinion about the global warming effect.

Like I said there is a new project, completely not related to my personal business. The guys who constitute the team are running a freediving and spearfishing business. They have close relationship with people who represent Apnea Academy in Greece. They asked me, bacause they consider me as a friend and as an individual apparently who has something to contribute to this project if I could get involved. The information that is going to be included is not my personal choice. I know a "few things" about instructional methodologies (teaching for 7 years now), I have been in the sea since I remeber myself, I love what I do and I will just put together with their opinions and approaches about Freediving and perhaps if they find it worthy my personal two cents. I am happy with their skills and capabilities. I am considered as not an easy customer but those guys made me love freediving and sympathise with spearfishing!

They have presented an other point of view and made me see the whole thing from their perpective! I am glad because I met those people and I am 100% sharing their approaches. They have seen friends loosing their lifes, they went through the whole recent history of freediving and they have overcome the stage of macho man, killer of fish and they are interested in leaving a work for those to come. They returned back to the olympic spirit and human respect, and they are not interested in get recognition because they allready have it. Furthermore, I like their characters. They have the character of the mentor!

Being an educator myself and affiliated with PADI, NAUI, TDI, DAN, ASHI I have some experience on how to develop a course outline and I hope that my contribution to this will be valuable.

A few words about the guys in the project. They are the ones who have converted me into a kean freediving fun and supporter. I have started some months ago, my personal venture in this field, with personal training. I have the best opinion about the benefits and rewards of this sport and I am just another person who wants to enjoy it! I want to do my best and even exceed my comfortable levels of cabability, for the benefit of this idea and to promote their spirit.

[island_sands]

Thank you!
Nice piece of kit in your compressor room

[samdive]

Peter - what's in my AIDA courses is publically available on Freedive Training with SaltFree

The only reason there is no AIDA book is that no-one involved has had the time to do this voluntarily and AIDA have not been willing to pay for it.

There have been quite a few suggestions over the years of making training videos for the AIDA courses. It's clearly a great idea and an important part of any education system. Unfortunately while AIDA continues to work as an undemocratic bunch of volunteers with hugely varying levels of commitment to their job - it just isn't gonna get that much better. If someone only realised the potential that there is in the AIDA Training system (both the business potential and the potential for better worldwide freedive instruction) and allowed it to reach that potential instead of stifling it at every turn, then all these things would be easily possible - as it is at the moment, it will carry on feeling a bit home-made and lacking elements everyone involved can see would be beneficial.

Sorry if I sound a bit bitter and twisted but I put my heart and soul into getting AIDA Education to the level it is today and finally gave up the battle after endless grief from other people on the Board a few months ago.

Maybe the new Education Commission will have more luck with this kind of thing.

[Stephan Whelan]

There is plenty of information out there on what is included in courses. Saltfree (AIDA), DB Courses (AIDA), PFI, FIT, Apnea Academy.

If you already have access to AA Instructors then that would form a good starting point. You need to approach the organisations or companies teaching and see if they are willing to share.

Not all instructors or agencies want to share and you have no fundamental right to the content they produce. I've been involved in teaching across recreational and technical industries for many, many years and the intellectual property rights to material is something that is fundamental to some businesses. Some decide that sharing their knowledge is best, others feel that it is better to encourage people to join their courses to find out more.

Ultimately everyone who teaches for money is doing it for that exact reason - earning money - if they say different they are telling porky pies. If you give away all the details of your lessons to the competition then they can take students and hence money away from you. If it is your livelyhood it could be very important to you to protect your revenue stream.

You can find out a tremendous amount about courses online and the basic structure of courses (in fact if you had posed as a potential student to any of the commercial organisations they would probably have sent you high level outlines as part of their marketing stuff - I know we do!).

There needs to be level of respect to people who earn a living from Freediving instruction and that works both ways. I applaud new agencies and instructors coming online and helping to spread the word but at the same time the people asking the questions should try and respect the fact people may be reluctant if their livelyhood depends on the course content.

[diveoceanos]

Originally Posted by Stephan Whelan

There is plenty of information out there on what is included in courses. Saltfree (AIDA), DB Courses (AIDA), PFI, FIT, Apnea Academy.

If you already have access to AA Instructors then that would form a good starting point. You need to approach the organisations or companies teaching and see if they are willing to share.

Not all instructors or agencies want to share and you have no fundamental right to the content they produce. I've been involved in teaching across recreational and technical industries for many, many years and the intellectual property rights to material is something that is fundamental to some businesses. Some decide that sharing their knowledge is best, others feel that it is better to encourage people to join their courses to find out more.

Ultimately everyone who teaches for money is doing it for that exact reason - earning money - if they say different they are telling porky pies. If you give away all the details of your lessons to the competition then they can take students and hence money away from you. If it is your livelyhood it could be very important to you to protect your revenue stream.

You can find out a tremendous amount about courses online and the basic structure of courses (in fact if you had posed as a potential student to any of the commercial organisations they would probably have sent you high level outlines as part of their marketing stuff - I know we do!).

There needs to be level of respect to people who earn a living from Freediving instruction and that works both ways. I applaud new agencies and instructors coming online and helping to spread the word but at the same time the people asking the questions should try and respect the fact people may be reluctant if their livelyhood depends on the course content.

I aknowledge what your are posting above. I am familiar with copyright issues and marketing advantages, corporate secrets and so on. I respect the policies of any organisation and I am not asking their actual course materials. If our project was the Globe, I suppose Cyprus (700,000 people out of 7 billion) would be the deeperblue discussion of it. So there is no reason for anyone to feel uncomfortable. No one would take someone else's material and use it. Everyone though are using universal terms and principles, with the right reference of course. And in some instances I shall use the information I know without having to ask permission like for example to explain the decompression theory (mentioning Schreiner equation, Haldane, professor Buhlmann as a tribute and repsect to their names). Permission to reproduce, modified or unaltered information that is under protection of the copyright law shall be asked if there is such case.

[Stephan Whelan]

Originally Posted by diveoceanos

I aknowledge what your are posting above. I am familiar with copyright issues and marketing advantages, corporate secrets and so on. I respect the policies of any organisation and I am not asking their actual course materials. If our project was the Globe, I suppose Cyprus (700,000 people out of 7 billion) would be the deeperblue discussion of it. So there is no reason for anyone to feel uncomfortable. No one would take someone else's material and use it. Everyone though are using universal terms and principles, with the right reference of course. And in some instances I shall use the information I know without having to ask permission like for example to explain the decompression theory (mentioning Schreiner equation, Haldane, professor Buhlmann as a tribute and repsect to their names). Permission to reproduce, modified or unaltered information that is under protection of the copyright law shall be asked if there is such case.

diveoceanos,

I appreciate what you are saying and am heartened to hear that you would reference other material.

The bit that you have to appreciate is that you are saying to people "i'm only interested in this for a project in Cyprus - what are you worried about". However no one has any basis to believe you. You are a new member to the forums here (and indeed the freediving world) - you have not spent time on the forums (or wider freediving community) to get to know people and in fact you seem reluctant to give too much basic information about yourself.

I understand your arguments why, I hope you can appreciate it from others persepective that you have not given anyone any reason to trust you and they haven't known you for long enough to be able to build up a level of trust.

Theseand other freediving forums as well as the wider (non-internet) community is all about trust. If you help the community then the community will help you.

[ADR]

Originally Posted by Stephan Whelan

These and other freediving forums as well as the wider (non-internet) community is all about trust. If you help the community then the community will help you.

.....and that is why he is Papa Smurf

This reminds me a little of A J Hacket (the inventor of Bungee Jumping) If a new Bungee business starts anywhere in the world he immediately trys to buy it to ensure safe practices occur as one bad incident could ruin the industry (freediving is not that different). The interesting thing about him is that if they don't sell to him he provides all of his expertise and guidance to them for free, in an attempt to get the same outcomes around safety - what a legend!

A bit more disclosure from Oceanos and straight talk about what he is really doing and he may find the community will in fact help him.......I for one would try to be a bit more like A J.