How much harder is it to freedive in cold water?

[jome]

Originally Posted by Stavros

Hmmm ... my opinion on the matter of diving conditions during a course is that it is up to the instructor to decide not to conduct a given open water session or the entire course if the conditions are so unfavourable as to significantly affect the students' performances.

Well that was sort of the whole point I guess. Conditions are very different in Greece and UK or Finland.

For us, 14 degrees is luxury and there is only 1-2 months when the surface water temp is above 20c. Below 10m it is never above 9c or so.

So should we just not educate people here? I don't think that is an option. Then the other option is that we simply gut it out, like so far. But it's hard creating pleasant experiences and when the experience is too extreme, it only attracts "extreme" people, which I don't like at all.

The third option is that we simply take it slower and accept the fact that maybe one or two weekends is not sufficient to break in a complete newbie into freediving in these conditions...If time was of limitless supply I guess that would be ideal for the student.

For obvious reasons, I favor the option of having a little room to manouvre with "adverse conditions". Defining those conditions is a bit different story (so that the option is not misused)

[sanso]

I propose thinking of adverse conditions as an extra (and free ) chance to learn more and gain even more experience than one would without them.

If AIDA starts introducing exceptions here, the discussions will never end and the rules and regulations will will grow to match the size of the Enzyclopedia Britannica in no time. No one will be able to calculate the benefits and disadvantages for all conditions anyway. They even differ for each diver!
If conditions suck badly, I'd rather trust the instructor's judgment to assess if (and how much) a freediver was affected (negatively) by them. An instructor will know if someone who did 14m in a current would be able to do 16m without that current.
Let's not try to make freediving an exact science. The open water, being what it is, won't allow us to, anyway.

Being certified by AIDA says that one can do at least whatever the certificate requires, most people excel in some disciplines anyway. I someone can do it in <enter favourite adverse condition here> - Good for them! And if someone needs a very exact assessment of their capabilities, they need to go to a dive tank or some other controlled environment anyway.

P.S.: I'm fairly new to the sport, got most of my freediving education so far in cold sweetwater, and my view isn't the typical one it seems. The above rambling might not even be worth the two cents..

[jome]

I agree that the instructor should have the responsibility for making the desicion. Also agree with the problematics of trying to define everything just so. So maybe it could be just "according to instructors assessment of the situation the performance should be within 10% of the required". And then list that conditions where this may apply include extraordinarily bad viz, cold, strong wind or current etc...In other words, give the instructors the freedom to exercise common sense in exceptional circumstances (which they should be doing in any case).

[samdive]

Hmmm ... my opinion on the matter of diving conditions during a course is that it is up to the instructor to decide not to conduct a given open water session or the entire course if the conditions are so unfavourable as to significantly affect the students' performances.

This is the reason why here in Greece most instructors do not organise courses between December and March (and we are talking of water temp of 13-14C nothing as arctic as 8-9C).

so, we can never teach in the UK then?

just seen Jome's reply, exactly what I wanted to say - both posts above

It IS harder to dive 16m in 12c, low viz but that doesn't mean it's impossible/dangerous/teaching in such conditions should be banned - that's why I agree the requirements could be slight reduced for poorer conditions

AND of course, as Jome says, if conditions are unsafe, the instructor uses judgement to cancel the session. I, for example, would not teach someone who wanted to do a course between Dec and March in open water unless they had all the right exposure gear.

the idea behind the AIDA reduction (and my views on it) were never that it would permit diving/teaching in an unsafe environment, just recognise that some are more challenging than others

[fcallagy]

Scuba has the same issue but doesn,t make any allowance for it. I think people who do their open water in warm clear water should at least be made to do a shake down/familiarisation when diving in cold and murkybut this doesn't usually happen afaik. I have dived in Dahab and Uk and didn't find any disceranable difference in my depths 32 Dahab 31uk and 29 Irl. I was progressing from in any case and was in Dahab in March where it was very comfortable for me if not for Linda who thought it cold.
I think the instructor should be allowed make a call on it on the day. So many things can happen with ears etc on a certain day or the student may have been doing FIM on day one to 20m but cant manage cw to 16 on day 2 due to ears or cold. I think the instructor should be allowed to make a judgement call on the day of the course but within obvious parameters and maybe with a reason supplied.

[BennyB]

I think it's an equalising issue more than anything else.

A week or 2 before the 2006 Worlds in Hurghada I had done a PB which was in cold water (less than 18 at surface, 10'ish at depth). Equalisation was my limiting factor, I was never really hypoxic. When I got to Hurghada my dive philosophy was to go as far as I could equalise then turn and come back. My first couple of dives were 2-4m more than the cold water dives, then as the week progressed I put 11m on my cold water PB. At a guess i'd say that 5-6m of this was due to warmer water being easier to equalise in, the rest was a product of repetitive diving (training, technique, mouthfill etc).

I haven't been diving up to those WC depths since then, but i've been diving in pretty cold conditions and not very often so this is a bit understandable.

Cheers,
Ben

[monkeyhatfork]

I'm taking a course in the near future and so I e-mailed PFI with this similar topic(cold/murky vs. warm/clear) several weeks ago, because I wan't to get the most out of the course I take. Mandy(PFI) said that they do tend to get better performances from students at locations like Grand Cayman or Kona compaired to some of the colder darker locations.

[monkeyhatfork]

The basic decision I'm trying to make when asking this questions is- Do I go with a course in Monterey Bay (much cheaper as I live in the area), or pay much more in travel costs for Kona or Cayman which would more or less insure a cenrtain comfort level in the water.

[amihov]

If you are planing to dive in a cold murky water, then it makes more sense to take the course in cold water. But if you are going to dive in a warm clear water go to kona. In warm Claire water diving is much easier then in cold water. You don't have to wearer a think wetsuite or weight belt. It is obviouse way you will get better performance. All the competions are done in a nice clear and warm water just because it is so much easier.

[cdavis]

Very interesting discussion on an equally tricky subject. My 2 cents:

If you are talking newbies or seriously skilled divers, it seems like a no brainer that better conditions, warmer, etc. will result in better performance and modifying requirements for severe conditions makes sense. However, if you are talking fairly experienced divers of modest skill (me), say 30-40 m CW, I'm not sure that's correct. For example, at Jon's Freedive-a-paloosa, the first time I'd ever worn a good suit or been in water anywhere near 4 C, I was doing deeper dives than in Cayman with almost no suit, only a few weeks before. For me, Wisconsin would certainly qualify as extreme conditions. Seems like it depends entirely on who is diving and what the conditions are, very individual. I don't see any good way to codify a rule for such a thing. Best leave it alone or leave it to the judgment of the instructor.

Connor

[m2b]

On Saturday evening I posted a QUITE LONG message about a situation that I have been going through and was looking for help. Well Sam, you helped me out BIG TIME!!! Thank you, and you didn't even reply to my message.

I stumbled into this message last night and as I was reading the replies that had been posted thus far, they confirmed my original thought as to why I was having the problem with my diving that I have been noticing. It's the bad vis that has been causing me to back out of the dives just before I hit bottom, right as I get into the "black hole". Granted there were several other questions all on the weird water temperatures that I have noticed happening around my area in the past week that I still don't have the answer for, but oh well.

After reading this message and the replies everybody had left as of last night, I pulled out my pipe goggles as well as the aluminum foil and duct tape. WHAT you ask!!! Yep, I made it so I can't see out the goggles, PERIOD! Yeah, I can see a little light that manages to filter through but I can see nothing else, no shapes, no nothing.

This afternoon I took them to the lake and went blind diving for the first time. I kept the weight belt off so I would be positively bouyant, purely for safety and instead of diving in the 28-35 foot water I had been diving in over the past couple of weeks I dropped back to 15 foot water instead.

The first dive went surprisingly smooth. The only problem that I notice now since I added the aluminum foil and duct tape to the goggles, all on the outside and only covering the lenses, is that one of the two lenses is leaking water like a sieve. If never used to leak at all, STRANGE??????? I don't have to even dive down to get it to leak, I just have to stick my head in the water and start the breathe up. Granted this helps the blind diving factor quite a bit, it also helps the disorienting factor as well. I figured with everything against me I wouldn't make it down to 15 feet before I backed out and headed for the surface. When my hands hit the bottom I was very surprised.

I decided to move out to a little deeper water and put myself into 22 foot deep water. This time the dive ended like most any of the dives have recently at Goshen Ocean...I backed out. This time though it wasn't the murky water but instead it was because I felt like I was diving down SIDEWAYS. It felt like I had went from diving vertically to diving at an angle, maybe even horiztonally. My mind took off and ran away with it and made me back out and head up for the surface. I figure I made it down 18-20 feet before I bailed. I do wonder what my body position was at the time when I bailed.

Since I don't dive for the views underwater I just dive for the pleasure of being in and under the water I plan to stick with blind diving for quite a while. I don't have to see anything under the water to enjoy myself. Yes, it does have its added risks, then again...so does driving a car and I don't wear pads or a helmet when I drive my car and I could easily be thrown from a car and have my brain splattered all over the pavement in a car accident...so why worry about the added risks with freediving. I figure I will get myself very use to diving without the aid of visual sight and be very comfortable doing it under any circumstances including being below bouyancy before I ever take the duct tape and aluminum foil off the goggles. It isn't all that hard to make yourself bouyant at 15 feet, heck even 10 feet. It can all be done quite safely, if you just think about it for a while.

The more comfortable you are diving under bad condition, ie cold temp, bad vis, current, etc, the more comfortable you will be diving under good conditions. It's all a matter of adjusting to the conditions that exist at the time/location you are diving, and nothing else. The more experience you get diving under rough conditions the more comfortable you will diving in rough conditions which will naturally improve your performance in both cases.

You can manipulate the rules to provide leeway for courses held in rougher conditions. Water temp is one thing that is a WEE BIT hard to control, but visibility isn't. You can take someone and put them in zero mm visibility without even trying. I think diving to a certain depth under zero visibilty should be a requirement. That certain depth should be below bouyancy. Since visibility is a controllable condition it should be controlled and taken into consideration. Not every lake or pond in the world have 1000 foot visibility, LMAO!!!!!

OH, I see those FLAMES coming up on the horizon, I better run for cover. I'm about to be blasted for this post.

Ryan

[Stavros]

Originally Posted by samdive

so, we can never teach in the UK then?

just seen Jome's reply, exactly what I wanted to say - both posts above

It IS harder to dive 16m in 12c, low viz but that doesn't mean it's impossible/dangerous/teaching in such conditions should be banned - that's why I agree the requirements could be slight reduced for poorer conditions

AND of course, as Jome says, if conditions are unsafe, the instructor uses judgement to cancel the session. I, for example, would not teach someone who wanted to do a course between Dec and March in open water unless they had all the right exposure gear.

the idea behind the AIDA reduction (and my views on it) were never that it would permit diving/teaching in an unsafe environment, just recognise that some are more challenging than others

Hey Sam I understand your concerns but I think we are facing the following facts:

You have locations like the UK were an open water session is done in cold murky waters - the conditions might be suitable for "enjoyable" diving 5-6 months a year .
In Scandinavian countries an open water session is done in cold waters with possible rough conditions (wind - swell etc) - good conditions might only be available only 4-5 months a year
In Mediterranean countries like Greece or Italy you might get good diving conditions 8-9 months a year but you still might have to deal with rough seas etc.
And then you have places like Egypt were you get excellent conditions 12 months a year great visibility etc...

On top of that at the same dive site you have different conditions during the year...so diving in the UK or the North sea or even Greece during summer months is easier than in the winter...

Soooooooo were are we at?

Teaching in a location like Egypt is usually done in optimal conditions ... so the AIDA performance requirements should always be met.

Then lets see Greece in the winter - I decide to hold a course in the winter (which I do not) and the sea is at 12-13C with 4-5m visibility and rough seas with currents...should the performance requirements not be reduced compared to Egypt?

Looking at the UK in the winter you have 9-10C water with minimum visibility and nasty temp bellow 10m ... performance requirements should be reduced even more...

Then you have Kike deciding to hold a course in the North pole and you have an ambient temp of -30 and a sea temp of -2... what should the performance requirements be there? (the names - locations mentioned at this post are not based on real life . No animals were hurt during this post)

I know these are extreme examples but I am presenting them as situations that we might be facing IF AIDA decides to have "flexible" performance requirements.

Another side of the issue is: Let us consider a student doing a 2* course in a cold country in the winter...the depth requirement goes from 16m to (lets say) 11-12m...then he comes to Greece to do a 3*...and he has to do 24m...don't you think that is a huge jump for someone to have to make? (think primarily of the mental side of it not the physical which will probably not be an issue)


My bottom line? if we start introducing "flexible" performance requirements in AIDA courses it does not do a lot to promote the credibility of the education system (If you do the course in Egypt you have to dive to 24m if in Greece then it is 22 if it is in the UK in the summer it is 21m and if it is Norway in the winter it is 19m !?!?!?!?)

Especially for the Instructor level courses I have to say that if you want to be an instructor you have to be able to meet the performance requirements (which are relatively low anyway for nowadays freediving performance levels) no mater what the conditions... You should be able to do a 32m dive in 31C water with no suit and at 9C with a 7mm on...a 3:30 static in a quite private pool or at a YMCA pool with a water polo team training next to you...if you cannot then how do you expect to be able to teach others in the future...


What am I suggesting? One set of universal performance requirements for AIDA courses... if conditions are so bad that the instructor feels the students will not be able to meet the performance requirements then maybe he/she should reconsider holding the course at that particular time of year/location. (I know it might mean only 6 months of open water courses in the UK and 8 months in Greece but I feel it is in the students' best interests and enjoyment and I believe it is worth it )



(just my 2cents)

Cheers Stavros

[samdive]

Especially for the Instructor level courses I have to say that if you want to be an instructor you have to be able to meet the performance requirements (which are relatively low anyway for nowadays freediving performance levels) no mater what the conditions... You should be able to do a 32m dive in 31C water with no suit and at 9C with a 7mm on...a 3:30 static in a quite private pool or at a YMCA pool with a water polo team training next to you...if you cannot then how do you expect to be able to teach others in the future...

I agree with you Stavros on the instructor levels - and really, on the whole thing. After all, I led the implementation of the courses initially and at that time, did not propose any variations on standards based on conditions.

However - the issue has now come up as the Education Commission has put in different performance levels for instructor candidates based on conditions and it only seems fair to feed that through the rest of the levels. I could be cynical and say that I know certain members of the EC might not quite have reached the levels they put in, and this variation means that they at least qualify themselves! but I do really believe it is based on us all having got a bit more experience of teaching the courses.

Personally I have taught in the UK and in the Red Sea and know a huge number of freedivers who have dived both in warm and cold water. Based on the people I have taught and the others I know, I'd say a 5m reduction for cold water/bad viz would be fair. I would be confident that anyone I had signed off as a 2 Star freediver who had achieved 11m in cold water/bad vis would comfortably reach 16m within a few dives if they headed to the tropics. Equally if they took 2 star here and 3 star with you in the Greek summer, I'm sure they wouldn't struggle with the transition from 11m to 24m, any more than they would have struggled from 16m to 24m

Incidentally the scuba analogy is incorrect. Scuba courses do not require the same max depth whether in cold/warm/low vis. A max depth is in place but so is a minimum depth and instructors make the call based on conditions. I would not, for example, take someone on an Advanced Open Water Deep dive without much dive experience to 30m in the UK, I just have to take them below 18m and usually call it at 22-25m depending on conditions (current, bottom composition, water movement, vis, temp). In the Red Sea, 30m would usually be fine.

Hope someone from the EC is monitoring this thread as apparently the discussions are underway at the moment - we will see what they decide!

S

[naiad]

Originally Posted by m2b

After reading this message and the replies everybody had left as of last night, I pulled out my pipe goggles as well as the aluminum foil and duct tape. WHAT you ask!!! Yep, I made it so I can't see out the goggles, PERIOD! Yeah, I can see a little light that manages to filter through but I can see nothing else, no shapes, no nothing.

Since I don't dive for the views underwater I just dive for the pleasure of being in and under the water I plan to stick with blind diving for quite a while. I don't have to see anything under the water to enjoy myself.

That doesn't sound very safe to me - getting disorientated could have serious consequences. Hope you are diving with a buddy.

[flying_spanner]

Here in New Zealand, South Island, East coast. the current predominantly comes up from the south. Water Temps range from 8 - 12 deg C. Divers here are used to it. I still find it bloody cold. Even worse is when the air temp is less than the water temp and you don't get to warm up once out of the water. I should also point out that till now I've alwaysed snorkelled and surfed wearing little more than a 2mm wetsuit. Some of the hardier (read crazy) locals gather Paua (abalonie) in little more than board shorts and a tee shirt!!!!

Does conditions have an effect on performance? For sure. Should there be allowances for conditions? Probably.

A point to note that as an Aeroplane Pilot a lot of training gets into working under extreme conditions, so you can fly safely in the worst case. Shouldn't diving be the same??