How much harder is it to freedive in cold water?

[jome]

I guess it can be agreed that in "adverse conditions" reaching same performances could take a little more time and resources (need better suit, maybe more time and experience).

I guess the question then becomes:
-Is this the responsibility of AIDA/EC or the individual instructor. Ie does AIDA offer a "compensation" or shall the instructor simply need to adapt to the different circumstances (ie maybe instead of one weekend, we need 2 weekends).

Usually the best solution is the simplest one. To keep things simple, I would start to lean towards leaving it to the instructors worry. Controlling and defining the "benefit" would simply be too vague (in my opinnion). It's worked so far for me at least (up to AIDA ***)

In this case there should also be consistency to the instructor course.

Well, that is my personal opinion anyway.

[samdive]

Simo - are you saying that there shouldn't be a target? the instructor just decides?

that would be difficult to police, but might be a good idea to work towards though...

i.e. the "AIDA 2 Star" cert means a student has a certain amount of knowledge, not so much that they can "definitely dive 16m".... after all, the knowledge is experience is more important than any definite depth achievement.

[jome]

I meant what Stavros is suggesting. The target is the same and it is up to the instructor to make what ever adjustments are needed for the student to be able to reach them.

Ie courses run in egypt and UK are different - and even if it is not "fair" for everyone, we just live with that. A course run in adverse conditions might take a day or two more for the student to get used to the conditions, but it is at the responsibility of the instructor to make up for the difference.

Where as the other option would be that AIDA try to "make up for the difference" in a form of different requirements for different conditions.

So in concrete terms what I favor is that AIDA 1-4 remain as they are and in the instructor course the special clause is removed - the requirements are the same in every conditions.

[fcallagy]

Kinda like Stavos and Jome said I feel up to 4 star should be a decision of the instructor if the depth achieved is near the required depth. For instructors I don't think achieving 32m should be flexible. If you are going for instructor you should be able to hit this depth not for the first time on your course but reasonably comfortably on a regular basis. (hope this comment doesn't come back to haunt me in the future). Instructors proabably should be held to an indisputable standard regardless of conditions and if the conditions are poor maybe repeat the course or that area of the course at a later date.

[samdive]

As I read it, Stavros and Jome are not saying the instructor should be flexible - the depth should still be achieved but would take longer in cold water, not really fair as I see it!

But - if the "adverse conditions" bit was removed from the instructor course, at least there would be consistency across the range of courses.

Which raises another question...... why does an instructor need to be super deep/long/far??? If he/she can reliably dive over and over to the depth they are teaching to, then why require any more than that? just a thought....

if you put in unnecessary demands at instructor level you are introducing lots of possibilities for claims of unfair discrimination - to those less able perhaps for medical reasons, to those diving in tougher conditioins, to women (who still do generally achieve lower PBs than men in freediving but are required to meet the same standards on all AIDA courses - should we have different standards for men and women on AIDA courses???).....
just some thoughts....

S

[Fondueset]

Well, I haven't gone for any sort of max depth but I've been thinking about my relative experiences as the temperature drops. I can say for sure that thermalclines when the surface temp is warm are pretty much just refreshing. The trick is to be able to relax through the shock.

A 3 mil suit is very nice to dive in. There is way less difference at depth than with a 5 - so it is both easier to go down, and easier to get up off the bottom. I've used a 3mil well into november and 10c water temps. The impact is on overall endurance - basically how long you stay in. Performance during the incipient stages of chill is generally best for me. A light suit in cold water just reduced the period of time when this is possible - while also making the up and down easier.

I have only rarely been diving in really warm water but this summer, at Hatteras, the water temp was 24-25c. I dove in a 1.5 mil suit with no hood and ,while I was still recovering from some truly radical seasickness, I noticed that 10 meters felt like about 4. My deepest dive was only about 20 meters because my float line yanked me up short as I was trying to get pictures of a sand tiger - but it was a very easy dive. So much so that I considered unclipping my float line so I could continue to pursue the shark. 20 meters is about as deep as I usually get around here due to accessibility and boat traffic. It is not a strain for me and I normally have plenty of time to find, sneak up on and photograph things down there. But the Hatteras experience was much easier. Unfortunately we had to move on to a different site at that point and there really were no further opportunities for good dives.

I attribute it to a couple of things - hypothetically at least.
1:No hood
2:Loose, thin suit allowing water circulation over the whole body
3:Salt Water. Sometimes it feels almost like you can breathe the stuff, I think there is something really different about the way it feels.

[Kars]

I would focus much more on the technique and the familiarity and relaxation of the student in the water. On top of that I would recomment a student should have an easy entry into the deepdiving, selecting form his, her local area the best spots and days.

Like suggested above I would rather have a longer course than to minimalise the requierments.

This because when a student goes out practicing his new hobby he is likely to face worse conditions some day and a having a margin is life saveing in changing and challenging circomstances.

Personally I've done my deepest dives (61m FIM, 57m CW) at Nordic Deep in Sweden using a 3mm suit. To overcome the cold I just did all my warm up on the shore and avoided the lost of any heat up to 5 min before Official top waering a warm jacket and cap in the boat.

Limiting the water time, and the correct physical and mental warmup may help the students to sail through challenging circomstances. This may actually a good idea to put a bit of the emphasis of the course to dealing with the local circomstances.

I think 'the numbers' are only a crude way to measure a particular level of understanding and skills.

People with a little bit of a brain understand it's not just the numbers but also the circomstaces, including personality and physical condition that determins how safe one's divebuddy is.
- Perhabs such a word of advice would help out those beginners much as wel.

Love, Courage and water!

Kars

[efattah]

Given that I have lots of experience diving in all waters from 3C to 30C, I can add my comments:

1. A single 'one-max' dive with no wetsuit, for someone who is conditioned, suffers no 'penalty' in cold water, in fact cold water gives an advantage to a certain point.

2. Diving with a wetsuit, a cold thermocline just below the surface gives an advantage, in my experience

3. When discussing penalties relating to different conditions, you must clearly specify if you mean repetitive dives (i.e. recreational) or one-max dives, which are a different story, since it is usually possible to do a one-max in almost any wetsuit if you have a boat and do a 1-2 minute 'warmup'

4. In 2003, I did extensive experiments tabulating the various penalties related to different wetsuit configurations. From memory, these are the penalties I tabulated (these penalties are for target depths of around 80m, with full packing):

- 8mm top + 5mm bottom, plus two heat packs under the wetsuit = 22m penalty relative to a 3mm suit

- 5mm suit: 9m penalty relative to a 3mm suit

- 5mm top, 3mm bottom: 4-5m penalty relative to a 3mm suit

These were derived from actual dives. For example, I did a 67m dive in 6C water with a (3+5)=8mm top, 5mm bottoms, and two heat packs, and the dive felt exactly like an 89m dive with a 3mm wetsuit.

Similarly, a 72m dive in a 5mm felt like an 81m dive in a 3mm. A 67m dive in a 3/5mm felt like a 71-72m dive with a 3mm.

Also note that the penalties for various wetsuits differ, based on if the diver is packing, or not packing, or FRC diving. An FRC diver generally suffers less of a penalty for a thick wetsuit, especially for middle depth dives.

[naiad]

For me it makes a huge difference as I can do 0m in cold water. However, if this stops me getting a qualification, I think it is fair, as it means I am not competent enough to be a safe diver in those conditions.

I managed to qualify as a PADI Scuba Diver, but not an Open Water Diver. This was because I refused to do the mask removal and replacement. I think it is fair that I am not qualified to scuba dive without an Instructor present, because I am not confident at all with several things, and the cold is one of them.

[apneaboy]

Most of my pb's are in cold water (including my current one) because that is where i practice. I wore a 3mm suit most of this year in Open Water in the UK and as long as you dive before you shiver it is fine. Read Eric Fattah's cold water diving article, it is great. Does anyone know a link to it i can't remember where i got it.

In terms of teaching as long as the student is given adequate thermal protection it should be enough. Don't teach in the middle of winter outside, do regular pool sessions in preperation for adequate conditions. Just give them extra sessions in open water in cold conditions over more than one day so they don't get cold. Instructors should be able to make their depth in whatever conditions, none of the instructors i have met struggled?!?.

If you start talking about temps I think tides and waves should be taken into account if you are starting to distinguish between warm and cold (presumably freshwater cold and warmwater sea) each has things to overcome. The only difference should be freshwater should be given a 3% headstart on saltwater because of density differences, other than that get on with it!!

Maybe the cards could have the country the course was completed in written on them. I know what 'UK' means on a scubies qualification. However I have recently witnessed a few divers come over from training mainly abroad and benefit from slightly the colder UK water so to be honest its swings and roundabouts. Its just a case of knowing the local problems.

Steve

p.s. this was written at the end of summer when its still warm, speak to me again in March brrrr.

[Stavros]

Originally Posted by samdive

As I read it, Stavros and Jome are not saying the instructor should be flexible - the depth should still be achieved but would take longer in cold water, not really fair as I see it!

Sam my view on this is that as the freediving instructor qualification is basically a professional license anyone interested in having it should be able to easily perform the minimum performance requirements no matter what the conditions... this is only logical as he/she is given a license to teach no matter what the conditions. To explain this: lets say I do an instructor course in Egypt and just barely manage to crack 32m. Then I move to Norway and set up shop. I have no experience in cold water diving and I can barely make it to the 20s in Norway. Should I be able to teach a 3* or 4* if I as an instructor cannot make the required performance minima?

My view is that if you want to be an instructor the performance requirements should be a joke ... you should be able to just take a breath and do a 32m dive any day of the week any time of year.

Originally Posted by samdive

Which raises another question...... why does an instructor need to be super deep/long/far??? If he/she can reliably dive over and over to the depth they are teaching to, then why require any more than that? just a thought....

In my mind the instructor has to be quite deep/long/far as it is quite clear in the AIDA education (you know this a lot better than me cause it is you who put it there ) that the instructor is also meant to be a role model - lead by example.

And if you can easily and repetitively hit the depths or do the static or distance required for the courses you are teaching (ie 32m, 3:30, 70m) then you can probably do quite a bit more on a one-off max dive…(so you are super deep/long/far or close enough anyway)

Originally Posted by samdive

if you put in unnecessary demands at instructor level you are introducing lots of possibilities for claims of unfair discrimination - to those less able perhaps for medical reasons, to those diving in tougher conditioins, to women (who still do generally achieve lower PBs than men in freediving but are required to meet the same standards on all AIDA courses - should we have different standards for men and women on AIDA courses???).....
just some thoughts....
S

Since freediving is a physically demanding outdoors activity there is no grounds for unfair discrimination... if you want to be able to teach it professionally you must be able to meet these physical demands.

In the end of the day it is not mandatory that everyone must be able to become a freediving instructor... a selection process should (and is getting there) be in place (and a strict one at that) same as for many other professions where physical and mental abilities are required in order to do the job properly.

Just think about it...should a man or woman who is not that fit and not that intelligent and barely managed to meet some "adjusted" performance mimima be trusted to take 4 students out in the open water and teach them how to dive to 24m while holding their breath just so nobody can claim that AIDA is discriminating?!?!?
The thought alone scares me.

Cheers Stavros

PS. This is not just me making up stories - I have seen some very questionable individuals going for instructor certification during the last year or so and the thought of them taking students out to open water was quite scary.

[samdive]

Hi Stavros

I basically agree with most of the above (as you know, as I put the initial standards in place)

My only query really is on the instructor performance requirements - why they need to be more than a small margin higher than the course (you are saying you are an instructor, not a world class freediver - PADI does not demand that all OW instructors also be qualified in trimix...)

The "health-check" side is true - of course the instructor needs to be fit and strong, but this is taken care of by the medical that is required, stamina tests and general in-water skills. You don't need to be super fit to make a one-off dive to 40m. I know plenty of people that could dive to 40m if they had their proper warm up, time to do yoga, time to do breathing, ate the right food and the weather was in the right place - but would NOT be able to make the 15 or so dives to 20m that you might do whilst supervising an AIDA ** course.

[samdive]

Eric - thanks for your reply.

We'd be talking repetitive dives as a course would never consist of a one-max dive. The aim of the thread is to find out what, if any, allowances should be made on depth requirements for courses taught in "adverse conditions" - not one-off pb attempts.


In your terms - we'd most likely be looking at the difference between diving in a 5ml suit (with socks and gloves) versus a 3ml (without)

[naiad]

One problem which I have, and which I am sure some other students of scuba/freediving must have, is that when I get into cold water, I get a very strong urge to breathe in. This is much worse if I put my face in the water, and while I can resist it, it is excruciating and really puts me off. It hasn't got any easier.

I am not sure of the safety aspects of this - I don't feel confident about diving or doing any other sport in cold water. Some people don't like things like mask removal, but they haven't described the problem that I have.

[efattah]

If we are talking about a 32m dive, then the real difference is what equipment the person is using. If the person is using a rented 7mm scuba wetsuit, with a huge weight belt, and short plastic bifins, and a big volume mask, then a 32m dive is very challenging. On the other hand, with a high quality monofin, a smoothskin 5mm, a hydrodynamic weight belt + neck weight, and a low volume mask, the depth should be quite easy in any conditions.

What bothers me more is the aquatic nature of the instructor. I know a person who is a qualified instructor (won't mention under which organization), and this person is completely unable to 'sink' during deeper dives. They insist on kicking violently during the whole descent, out of fear and panic. In my opinion such a person has not reached the mental level of aquatic comfort to be an instructor -- imagine such a person 'teaching' other people to 'sink', when the instructor is unable to demonstrate the skill !!