negatives and contractions

[harbour seal]

Originally Posted by laminar

Mind you, I do have the benefit of having trained intensely years ago and been through all that. But if someone came to me and wanted to become an excellent freediver, I would go about it in a vastly different way. I would make it much more enjoyable, for starters. I can outline my approach if anyone is interested, although it would of course depend on your personal goals and preferences.

pete,
as a fledgling frc freediver (or even just fledgling freediver) i most definitely would benefit from your wealth of experience and would love to read or even study your approach.

in fact, i have learned a great deal from your many insightful and well written posts here on db (not to mention a whole bunch of excellent articles on the main site to boot). you have a real talent at getting to the heart of an issue in a clear and thoughtful manner. keep up the good work.

as the newest member of vanapneist i hope to have the pleasure of diving with you sometime in the future.

sean

[naiad]

Originally Posted by harbour seal

it seems to me that you are mixing two quite different things together:

1 - negatives - this refers to forceful exhale(s) before breath holding, leaving the lungs close to residual volume (depending upon how much air you actually exhale). this can create negative pressure in the lungs as the pressure in the lungs can be below ambient. negatives are quite often used during warm up to help strengthen blood shift and can assist with depth adaptation.

2 - exhale diving - this refers to doing a passive exhale prior to breath holding, leaving the lungs at ambient pressure or functional reserve capacity during the hold. this style of diving is also called frc, seal or e (empty) diving. this is the style of diving pioneered by sebastien murat, among others.

I was thinking mainly of negatives, but FRC causes similar problems for me. With both it feels like I have very little stores of O2, and I reach the limit much faster.

Originally Posted by harbour seal

contractions due to carbon dioxide build up are nearly impossible with empty lungs during negatives. any contractions experienced are likely due to low oxygen levels.

Maybe that is why they feel different. I once said that on a previous thread, but deleted it because someone thought it was dangerous advice to say that hypoxia can cause contractions, because someone may think that it is always possible to know when to stop by the contractions. I was not saying that. I have blacked out with no warning at all, no contractions or strange feelings of any kind. However I have experienced the different kind of contractions described in above posts, during hypoxic training such as negatives and FRC.

Originally Posted by harbour seal

i may be mistaken, but i do not think there is more of a risk of water inhalation during exhale/frc diving than f (full lungs) diving; however, a diver's lungs will hit residual volume at a shallower depth given the lower starting lung volume. the pressure on the lungs at various depths will also (initially) feel greater using the frc style versus full lungs, and time for adaption is necessary to avoid lung squeeze.

finally, negatives should be performed with extreme caution as water inhalation after black out may be possible (due to the negative pressure---vacuum effect). in addition, it is easy to replicate the pressure of very deep dives and thus cause lung injury, if not properly adapted. i have read accounts of numerous experienced divers who have injured themselves while doing negatives.

The reason I am scared of inhaling water with exhale/FRC dives is that even at a depth of 3m, what was passive exhale at the surface will become negative pressure. Also I get a different kind of contractions, trying to breathe in, which is too scary. When I did a free immersion dive to 22m with full lungs, I probably had less volume of air than a FRC dive to 3m, but those contractions did not happen, so it is probably something to do with hypoxia as well as low volume.

[laminar]

Sean,

What are you looking to do with your diving? Perhaps PM me since it's not really part of this thread, unless others want to read it.

Pete

[fabrice]

Pete,

You can start another thread on this, but it's definitely interesting. I'm myself a frc addict and I found much of what I feel in your previous message, but I'm always eager to learn more !

Fabrice

[hteas]

Pete,
Thanks for the comments. There's just a few things, though.
First, slush is known to form on the surafce this time of year. It is NOT conducive to training.
I get a rapid dive response with the negatives, so I have kept them up. As I'm training more for endurance (spearfishing or recreational diving) than competition, I'm assuming that more pushes to the brink (while staying safely dry) will improve my endurance for a 3-4 hr dive in Hawaii (or up here in summer).
In addition to the dry stuff, I do modified frc one night a week. 25 yd on the bottom neutrally buoyant by partially emptying my lungs, and 25 back on the surface on my back recovering.

The big constraint I have, like a lot of other divers in marginal habitats, is I don't have a training partner. There just isn't anybody interested in dragging themselves out into the ice and snow to get wet and hurt themselves.

I'd be interested in any thoughts on a better training regime, within the limits on me up here.

Howard

[johnny]

Originally Posted by laminar

Sean,

What are you looking to do with your diving? Perhaps PM me since it's not really part of this thread, unless others want to read it.

Pete

i am definately interested and would like to read it

thanks.

[laminar]

Originally Posted by hteas

Pete,
I get a rapid dive response with the negatives, so I have kept them up. As I'm training more for endurance (spearfishing or recreational diving) than competition, I'm assuming that more pushes to the brink (while staying safely dry) will improve my endurance for a 3-4 hr dive in Hawaii (or up here in summer).

Nah, if you mean that you want to be able to dive well over several hours in warm water, I would do cardio on a regular basis and then throw in the odd anaerobic set once or twice a week. By "more pushes to the brink" I assume you mean dry statics? I personally wouldn't use that as a preparation for recreational/spearo diving unless your goal is to become more comfortable with apnea in general, if you are still exploring that. But not to "get better." And even so, I personally find dry statics to put my mind very far away from how I feel in the water, so I rarely do them.

And what is your main goal for diving? A certain average depth on each dive, a time, or just a sense of confidence in the typical conditions, times and depths you find yourself in while diving?

Are you diving FRC primarily?

How do you feel your progress is going with what you are currently doing?

If you provide me with more information about your diving summer and winter and what a week of training looks like, I can better comment on it. Also, what improvements would be for you.

In addition to the dry stuff, I do modified frc one night a week. 25 yd on the bottom neutrally buoyant by partially emptying my lungs, and 25 back on the surface on my back recovering.

This doesn't seem intense enough to be an effective training exercise (unless relaxation is your goal). I'm also worried about the short recovery while actively swimming. Do too many of those in a row and there's the potential of getting depleted, especially on an exhale or partial exhale. If it's well within your comfort zone, then it doesn't sound like it would trigger any training effect except for relaxation, as I mentioned.

Again, not sure what your goals are.

Pete

[laminar]

I'll start a new thread in a bit and I'll focus my training ideas on the question of improving overall as a diver - ie. achieving true comfort and an added subjective margin of safety on normal dives, FRC and regular inhale (not packing).

Is that what you would like to read?

Pete

[demasoni]

I would like to read about your approach as well Pete, for both recreational diving and record/competitive type diving.

[Gera]

I would like to read this, too, Laminar.

[wet]

AFAIK low O2 levels never induce diaphragmatic contractions.

Originally Posted by harbour seal

it seems to me that you are mixing two quite different things together:

1 - negatives - this refers to forceful exhale(s) before breath holding, leaving the lungs close to residual volume (depending upon how much air you actually exhale). this can create negative pressure in the lungs as the pressure in the lungs can be below ambient. negatives are quite often used during warm up to help strengthen blood shift and can assist with depth adaptation.

2 - exhale diving - this refers to doing a passive exhale prior to breath holding, leaving the lungs at ambient pressure or functional reserve capacity during the hold. this style of diving is also called frc, seal or e (empty) diving. this is the style of diving pioneered by sebastien murat, among others.

Image:LungVolume.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


contractions due to carbon dioxide build up are nearly impossible with empty lungs during negatives. any contractions experienced are likely due to low oxygen levels.

as far as buoyancy, when diving the frc style the idea is to be able to sink in a passive fashion from the surface. the descent essentially becomes a static, which conserves oxygen until ascent (when the dive response is much stronger). comparing only the last part of the ascent it may seem more difficult to get to the surface using the frc style than full lungs due to the negative buoyancy; however, sebastien murat's findings consistently demonstrated that a diver returns to the surface with HIGHER partial pressure of oxygen in the lungs when using the frc style than with full lungs.

i may be mistaken, but i do not think there is more of a risk of water inhalation during exhale/frc diving than f (full lungs) diving; however, a diver's lungs will hit residual volume at a shallower depth given the lower starting lung volume. the pressure on the lungs at various depths will also (initially) feel greater using the frc style versus full lungs, and time for adaption is necessary to avoid lung squeeze.

finally, negatives should be performed with extreme caution as water inhalation after black out may be possible (due to the negative pressure---vacuum effect). in addition, it is easy to replicate the pressure of very deep dives and thus cause lung injury, if not properly adapted. i have read accounts of numerous experienced divers who have injured themselves while doing negatives.

more experience frc divers feel free to jump in here

cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada

[hteas]

Pete,
To answer your questions:
I first used a mask in the ocean 1953 as a terrified 5 year old, and never looked back. I speared my first fish 2 years later. I have been diving ever since. Scuba in 1961, trained by my father, and used for work (marine biology). I learned I was a freediver in 1989 when I found a copy of "Last of the Blue Water Hunters" by Carlos Eyles.

In 2003 I had a PFI class, where I was the only student without a single national record. I've also been helped by Annabel and Co. on the ropes at Hounaunau. I'm not competitive, and have never been past 39 m CW, 5:35 apnea, or 50 m dynamic

I train by riding to work during the summer and on rollers during the winter, plus occasional windsprints, underwater laps, and general play time in the pool.

My goal as a freeediver is to continue to do it. I want to be able to be comfortable have reasonable breathholds when I get into the water, rather than fritter away a vacation getting back to where I want to be: relaxed drop in 30 to 70 ft of water, and stay a while to visit with or kill fish, depending on the day. ; o
Paul Kotik's "Diving before the Rope" pretty well describes my approach.

My interest in this discussion is figuring out the breathing part of the equation. I've read some of your stuff, as well as Sebastian Murat and Eric Fattah, and I've spent time with world record holders (Martin and Annabel), as well as a several national record holders, as well as trainers and lots of general freedivers. There seems to be a very wide range in training techniques. My goal in this is to get help sifting through the mass of info to get at the basics that underlie breathing (or not breathing). If anything, at present, my guess is that slowing the brain down is at the core of the whole thing, surrounded by appropriate breathing technique, and training on the outside of the ball. It's kind of like trying to reach John Lilly's "high indifference", but with the ability to get out of it before drowning (make sense?).
For those who never heard of him, Lilly was a dolphin researcher that turned to deprevation tanks and chemicals to get inside himself as the first step to communicating with the dolphins. He described the high indifference as the the ultimate guy watching the tv set watching the tv set watching...watching reality back in his head. My only brush with it was during my SWB. I was aware, but had no attachment to anything, including breathing or continuing with my life.

I hope this makes some sort of sense.
Howard

[Mullins]

The basics that underlie breathing? It doesn't sound like this is the answer you're looking for, but I think it simply comes down to 1. how much C02 you take with you and 2. how much you fill your lungs i.e. full exhale/frc/inhale/packing. How you get better is by exposing your body to the various stresses of tough, working breathholds and allowing it to adapt. I don't think there is any way around this, so in the absence of a training partner maybe you could do more intense dry training like apnea walks? Never tried them myself but it is a reeeasonably freedive-specific thing to do.

To be honest I don't think that your mental state is going to matter much, as long as you are fairly relaxed. So although chasing some sort of supreme zoned-outness or detachment might feel kinda cool and you would probably enjoy the dive more, it won't affect performance. Enjoyment is a great thing to aim for, but don't necessarily expect it to make you any better.

Like I said, probably not quite what you're looking for . But another perspective anyway.

p.s. I am thinking about recreational diving here, though it may not sound like it. If you give yourself sufficient performance headroom through training, you will find you are much freer to enjoy yourself and play around with mental states when spearfishing or sightseeing.

[cdavis]

Pete,

Yes!

Connor

[naiad]

Originally Posted by hteas

It's kind of like trying to reach John Lilly's "high indifference", but with the ability to get out of it before drowning (make sense?).
For those who never heard of him, Lilly was a dolphin researcher that turned to deprevation tanks and chemicals to get inside himself as the first step to communicating with the dolphins. He described the high indifference as the the ultimate guy watching the tv set watching the tv set watching...watching reality back in his head. My only brush with it was during my SWB. I was aware, but had no attachment to anything, including breathing or continuing with my life.

Sounds scary, or maybe I am not understanding correctly?