How to improve at freediving (rec and comp)!

[cdavis]

Pete,

I think you have given me the key. Thank you.

I played with these ideas in the pool today and can see that it is going to work. Diving this weekend. Ass-backwards eh. This will be interesting. Check your pms for a description of where we are going. You are permanently invited.

Connor

[Mullins]

I've played around with FRC dives a bit and really enjoy them. However I wonder how much good they are doing me if they're not taking me below RV? I should theoretically reach RV at 30m on an FRC dive, based on measurements I had taken yesterday. I don't go below 30m very often on FRC, especially on recreational dives. They do seem to help with flexibility, I'm just not sure how that would be the case if I can get a lower volume simply by exhaling.

I'm considering pursuing FRC more seriously as an recreational dive strategy. However I'm rather wary of the risks involved. In my opinion it is quite easy to stuff up an FRC dive and get yourself into trouble, e.g. by over-ventilating or by moving around too much before the 'PBP' as Sebastien calls it.

[laminar]

You're at RV on FRC at 30m? I'd be interested in your calculations.

I think it still helps even if most of your dives are not below RV, simply because your body isn't dealing with elevated pressures associated with inhale and inhale/packing.

There are definitely risks involved if you approach FRC with the same style that you use with inhale. I don't know much about how you dive for fun, except that you are an incredible diver. But I would imagine that perhaps you can do a lot of active movement on an inhale dive and have a better than average C02 tolerance. I seem to remember that you once held a spearfishing WR? That probably wouldn't work on FRC. I would guess that FRC is not that great for spearing fish because of the smaller amount of 02 available for the bursts of exertion required to land fish.

It seriously took me half a year to figure out a new style for FRC and take it very slowly, which is humbling as I said previously. Eric had similar experiences, although, being a better diver than I am and, having no issues with lung injury, he progressed much more quickly than I did and routinely dives to 40m on FRC in winter conditions.

Also, to make a distinction between Seb's PBP and the recreational method I'm discussing - I rarely make a rec dive to PBP, focusing instead on minimizing 02 consumption. Seb's methods for performance are a whole other ball of wax that I don't use for fun diving.

[Mullins]

Ahh, ok. My rec dives are largely passive so do seem to suit FRC pretty well, but probably tend to be closer to the 'performance' end of the scale so I've been aligning my approach more with Seb's methods for performance diving. I actually have pretty lousy CO2 tolerance, which is one reason I'm starting to look at FRC more closely.

As for the calculations... I pretty much suck at maths but my RV=1.52l and FRC=6l.

[laminar]

That's funny, Dave. I'm not sure what my RV is but my old lung capacity with packing years ago was around 9 L, regular inhale was just over 6 L. So my FRC would be somewhere in the vicinity of 3.0 - 4.0 L, I think, although it's been ages since I've done any spirometry on that.

So what's your TLC, then? 14 L?

[Mullins]

It was a little over 15l - but remember my body mass is correspondingly high at 90kg. TLC was down a bit from last time as I haven't been packing much over the last few months. However I was very happy to hear my RV was quite low, sort of puts paid to that persistent idea of packing increasing RV...

Interesting to hear the different approaches to rec diving. I usually just treat rec dives like sub-max comp dives. If I was going to give up comp diving and just spearfish (which is tempting at times...) I would probably train the same way I do now, only back off the intensity a bit. I.e. treating the training as a mechanical task to be performed in order to gain the 'performance headroom' that allows me to hang out at depth and enjoy my rec dives. Certainly not very Zen and sounds like drudgery, I know; however there is a certain pleasure in performing a mechanical task well.

I am wary of using FRC in the 'lite' sense as a way of simply reducing energy expenditure over a dive. It seems to me that you really need to use that PBP if you want to keep yourself safe. However I'm only scraping the surface of it and this is probably just natural wariness towards 'diving on empty.....'

[laminar]

I think there's two things here. The first is that there's a learning curve in changing a diving style to suit FRC in the first place - so that the descent becomes a static apnea exercise. That takes attention to technique and mindset.

Using PBP to keep yourself safe still works if you descend properly. And luckily, you'll know if you descended properly right away in the beginning, because C02 contractions on FRC suck!

I definitely prefer the zen approach to rec diving over the sub-max diving style.

What was your TLC before you started packing or have you always packed? I would say that while it would seem that you've avoided increasing your RV with packing, many others have not been so lucky. I think it's still a risky thing.

[fflupo]

what is PBP?

[laminar]

Psychological break point - either when contractions start or when the act of holding one's breath becomes a real drag, so to speak.

[Mullins]

I just haven't heard or seen any evidence that packing increases RV - I know Tom Sietas says he gets lung squeeze and blames packing, but did he ever try going below 70 before he started packing? This is the first time I've had my RV (& therefore TLC) measured, so I have no before/after comparison.

I suspect I reach PBP a little earlier than many people, just like I get contractions very early on inhale dives. This has probably led me to wait for it to occur on each FRC dive before beginning to ascend. My descents are passive. But yes, I've only just started FRC diving and my dive style will need a lot of adjustment.

Anyway, cool thread. Although I have a different approach to rec diving I do like reading this stuff.

[naiad]

Part of the reason I don't like negatives and hard CO2 training is the psychological effect of doing something I don't want to. I posted a bit about that here...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/679296-post19.html

[fflupo]

thanx for sharing your experience very much appreciated

i m training since almost 3 years now, mainly cw.. on passive exhale or FRC and in the winter i go to the pool as well , for some dynamic training i don t do statics anymore.


basically i discovered the same experiences and the progress in my performance was/is amazing

I don t really understand how you guys deal/approach with the PBP ?
f.e. what you mean with?:

Using PBP to keep yourself safe still works if you descend properly

me usually when i get into the struggle mode ( PBP ?) i start to move just as a distraction and then relax/glide again like this i can keep on going much longer..

[naiad]

The CO2 tolerance thing is interesting. I used to think that the only effective way to improve CO2 tolerance is CO2 tables. Now I have realised that there are many ways to improve physical and psychological tolerance without CO2 tables. General fitness training increases CO2 levels, so it should improve the ability of the muscles to work in high CO2 conditions and become more efficient. Statics (wet and dry), dynamics and O2 tables all improve CO2 tolerance, unless they are all very short and effortless. Anything which increases CO2 levels to significantly above the resting level is CO2 training, so that includes most apnea training.

[Fondueset]

I don't really practice statics - I've done maybe 3 max breath hold tries in my entire life - once when I was 16 and twice in the last year. So I haven't much experience with the PBP. But last time I tried dry statics I did a personal best and afterward, during the same session, long holds became really interesting psychologically. There was a sort of hysterical urge to breath that I would characterize as a kind of inner scream. I don't generally experience panic but I would say it was pretty close. My temperament is such that my inclination was to explore it further but it began to feel pretty negative.

[Mullins]

I've always understood the first 'P' to stand for Physiological, i.e. the point at which the effects of the dive reflex strengthen dramatically; but then PBP is hardly a dictionary-defined term. Certainly nothing psychologically dramatic happens to me at PBP, I just begin to get contractions and feel less comfortable.

I hope you're still going to do that write-up on performance diving Laminar, I was looking forward to that.