flushing sinuses and pushing limits

[Jon]

Sedate,

Forget about the death and dismemberment warnings and just think about what your body is trying to tell you- if you need to flood to get deeper than you haven't made the proper adjustments to the depth your trying to attain.

Let's say you push yourself and don't die, because you have great support, but you hurt yourself because you pushed yourself too hard- I'm mainly talking about throat and lung squeezes here. At this point you've just knocked your training back months- or even years. If death isn't a concern, then at least not being able to participate in a sport that you love should be a close second. It would be a shame to loose so much joy from this sport because you tried to push yourself along too soon.

I've seen people come up with squeeze injuries because they pushed too hard, and too fast, in the course they were taking. watching them spit up blood is a bit unnerving, but watching them sit on the boat while others dive is just plain sad.

There are training groups that advocate no more than a 1 meter depth increase per session. The idea is to be able to spend some time at th depth you're diving to before you progress down to the next one. This means you make relaxed, and gradual, adaptations to the pressure and the likely hood of injury is much less.

Think of it as training for a marathon. You don't just go out and run 26.2 miles. You need to build a base, and give yourself some rest, to get there. It may take some time,but the more time you put into the base building phase the easier the feat in the end will be.

Advice is free so take it for what it's worth.

Jon

[apneaboy]

Patience is the key....

If the call is so strong find somewhere you can do it all the time with people to help you.

It sounds like you are having negative experiences which will lead to frustration. Take the advice of the people who obviously care and dive safe, practice safely all will come.

Good luck :-)

[land shark]

OK from a rank armature and what its worth. In the great white north we are trapped all winter with conditioned air (heated). It has all the wonderful sinus inflictions known to man. Every spring it seems that it is a practice getting ones sinuses to clear properly. The only thing I rely on for any depth is if the day seems it is so. Keep diving a enjoyable endeavor its good for a lifetime. The only way I have found to deal with sinus problems is to try to remain healthy and dive as often as possible. I have found that if you take it easy your sinuses will begin to respond if you push it, it only seems to prolong the problems. Personally i have not tried the rope work for a long time perhaps this year.

just my 2 cents

[trux]

There is a new document from Peter Germonpré, Costantino Balestra and Patrick Musimu about sinus flooding. Unfortunately only a brief abstract is available free, the access to the full text is available to subscribers of the British Journal of Sports Medicine only.

Passive Flooding Of Paranasal Sinuses And Middle Ears As A Method Of Equalisation In Extreme Breath-hold Diving -- Germonpré et al., 10.1136/bjsm.2007.043679 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

[trux]

I trust that you did it with good intentions, but am not so sure that the authors and the publishers would appreciate it. If they charge a fee for accessing the document, it means they do not want to let it in the public domain. By publishing it you violate copyright laws, cut their income, and may bring DeeperBlue owners into legal troubles. I'd rather suggest that you remove the file from here, unless you have the permission from the authors or the publisher.

[billieball]

TRUX,
I removed my post with the article attachment. I figured since I pay for access to these scholarly articles (and oh boy...do I ever PAY$$$), then I wasn't violating any copyright laws by sharing one. I wasn't using the authors' words as my own, and I wasn't charging others to read them. My undergrad degree is in English literature, with my grad degree in Criminal Justice. I am quite familiar with copyright laws, especially when regarding scholarly journal entries. However, since it seemed to make you a bit uncomfortable (and in turn, your discomfort caused me discomfort), I removed the link. Everyone, just rest assured that the article was indeed quite good. Perhaps when I am through with my thesis, I can paraphrase some of these articles for my freediving buddies...and we can all share the knowledge!
--Billie

[billieball]

Originally Posted by trux

If they charge a fee for accessing the document, it means they do not want to let it in the public domain.

One more thing...the fee is not to keep an article out of public domain. The fee's purpose is not to keep such scientific information in only the hands of a few elite. Rather, the contents of such studies often make it into not only the sheltered world of academia, but also to the general public. Anyway, just thought I'd clarify.

[trux]

Billie,

Well, I am not an expert in US law, but I am pretty sure that publishing of a document that is not in a public domain, violates some laws, regardless if you charge for it or no. Even if non-commercial publishing was allowed (which I am persuaded is not), the additional problem is that this website is not entirely non-commercial. Although the incomes probably do not trigger any big profit, DB does have paying subscribers, and it does get some income from advertising too. It is not me who was uncomfortable with having the ripped document published here. I just wanted to warn you that its appearance can cause legal troubles to you and to the owner of DeeperBlue (Stephan Whelan).

If you are persuaded you do not violate any laws, you can put the document on your own website, put it on a peer-to-peer sharing network, or send to people by email, but I think it is wiser not putting others under the risk of legal persecution by putting copyrighted pay-for material on their websites.

Thank you (for Stephan Whelan and for the authors of the article) for removing the document. I am sure that it will once land in the public domain anyway, but as long as it can trigger some income to the authors, I think it is unfair interfering with their interests. And I do personally know of at least two DB members who already purchased the article, after seeing it referred in this thread. Likely there were many more who bough it without telling me. If you were quicker than them and posted the document earlier, it is quite possibly that some of them would not bother with the purchase - hence you would (and possibly did anyway) cut the income of the authors.

[billieball]

Originally Posted by trux

but as long as it can trigger some income to the authors, I think it is unfair interfering with their interests. .

Once again, I do not think you understand the purpose of scholarly journals. The authors of articles contained in them DO NOT get paid. As a grad student, I can speak for countless other PhD candidates...the whole point of getting published in a scholarly journal is for the exposure. So, I am not hampering the obtaining of funds to these authors.
Anyway, I do think it a moot point, as I diligently removed my link...at your behest. And veiled attempts at intimidation by dropping the name of the owner of Deeper Blue simply don't fly well by me. I have utmost respect for Whelan, and obviously for Deeper Blue. Believe me...I wouldn't want to jeopardize anyone's website with superfluous legalities (or illegalities, as you so gallantly point out). Thanks again for the heads-up, I do appreciate your concerns. Way to go in looking out for your comrades here at Deeper Blue by attempting to make a single, lowly freediver feel like an imbecile. Way to go...

[BennyB]

Ok, before this escalates into name calling and dummy spitting please keep the bickering to a minimum. Besides annoying each other it's detracting from the original subject.

Billie - thank you for removing the document. Copyright law is different around the world and can be hard to understand, however to keep it simple I refer you to the DeeperBlue Forum rules:

POSTING CONTENT FROM OTHER PEOPLE OR WEBSITES
Copying any content from another person's work, or another website, is not allowed without express permission from the creater/owner of the original work. Even if you attribute the article correctly it is still copyright infringement. Do not reproduce substancial parts of articles or news items from other sites in the forums. If you don't have permission to copy something then always err on the side of caution and simply post a link to the material at its original location, or quote a short excerpt only, indicating where the quote came from. DeeperBlue.net Ltd shall not be held responsible for member-posted information that violates copyright.

The forum rules can be found here: DeeperBlue.net Forums - FAQ: DeeperBlue.net Forum FAQ

Cheers,
Ben

[Erik]

I don't think any harm's meant from anyone about this. Billie thanks for trying to share info, hopefully we can see some of your work at some point?
Cheers,
Erik

[billieball]

Ben,
Thanks. I do tend to get a bit fired up at times when it involves what I feel to be a dig at my intelligence/knowledge. I appreciate the advice to cool down.

Erik,
Most of my graduate studies focus on underwater crime scene investigation, and not freediving. However, I did do an academic presentation on freediving training & its applicability to UCSI training. You know, stress maintenance, etc...? I'd be happy to share one day!

Everyone,
Have fun, dive safe, take care!
--Billie

[trux]

Billie, I apologize if I offended you, but I really did not dig at your intelligence at all. My note was not about intelligence, but about ethics, and as I wrote in my original post, I was sure you did it with good intentions and appreciated it. I just though that the publisher, the authors, and the owner of DB may not appreciate it in the same way as our fellow freedivers (BTW, I did not understand why you were upset by my mentioning Stephan's name - his name is well known here, and I do not think that using it is intimidating).

[billieball]

Whatever, Trux. It's over and done. I'll continue to enjoy my tedious perusals of scholarly articles. Take care, and tell Mr. Whelan I said "hello."

[Marwan]

Billie
underwater crime scene investigation? that sounds pretty cool, would freediving accidents be a possible venue for their work for example? i cant think of any examples, but maybe Audrey Mestre (not to open that subject, but just the example off the top of my head)