Advantages of FRC diving?

[efattah]

Originally Posted by watts

Eric in vb2008 you said you used 1 litre over FRC why is this? Just for equalizing or breathhold. How are you finding consistancy with this as i find frc realy quite acurate but anything more seems a bit off (checked with spirometer). You are exhaling down to this right not inhaling up. You also used a neck weight and had the weight of the mono too this would have to be a few kgs.

For my last breath, I exhale fully, then relax, at which point my lungs auto-inflate to FRC volume. I then take a tiny extra gulp on top of that. The main reason I do that is because while floating in the water, my chest is a bit compressed, so I need to gulp a bit extra to make up for the compression. Anyway, my dive performance doesn't seem to change much whether I dive on actual FRC, slightly below, slightly above, etc... I can even do 100% exhale recreational dives for about 1'20" once I get in the zone.

[Mullins]

Any idea what's causing that isolated chest pain near the sternum Eric?

[efattah]

Originally Posted by Mullins

Any idea what's causing that isolated chest pain near the sternum Eric?

Still don't know; strange that we both got the same feeling in the same place, and it often happens after deeper dives or full negatives.

The feeling is a highly localized discomfort on the side of the chest near the lung, on one side only. It goes away usually the same day or the next day.

[Fondueset]

I've had ribs shift in the course of intense breathing - particularly Uddiyana. It can create intense localized pain.

[fflupo]

i m doing FRC / active exhales now since more than 3 years, and i haven t discovered any disadvantage beside safety dives, it requires a clean equalization technic and it gives a sensation i can not explain in words, the movement of the blood out of the limbs and the free-fall down together with the full control of epiglottis etc. is outstanding

i had the same discomfort feeling of lower-side of chest and in the solar-plexus area, as well as i mostly get, especially after deeper FRC (30+)/ empty(15+) dives i need to crack my spin back into place

since more than a year i do an asana session after diving and it is getting much better.

on a max passive exhale dive i although take a gulp of air on top just to have this feeling of breathing in ( at least a bit) but i think it is more of a mind game

i work a lot with my survival shock, together with the passive exhale i let cold water coming up in my suit and the DR kicks in even stronger

for beginners and newbies i recommend to start slowly and take lots of time to adopt the body to the pressure and sensation and supervision

:-)
gravity sucks

[turtle]

FRC diving feels a lot more natural than big inhale diving in that you need less/no weights, you get a nice sense of blood shift & you can concentrate on equalising etc. Also makes you a lot more manoeuvrable in the shallows for snorkelling around.

Had some odd experiences with it though, including feeling sort of 'blocked' in the chest around 10/15metres. This feeling came on after frc diving for a month or so & going deep just felt 'wrong' all of a sudden, including on full lungs. Very frustrating as i couldn't work out why it happened & my max was 30m frc before & anything around 15m frc was super comfortable ie. could get minute or two bottom time quite happily. Difficult imagining doing my inhale pbs on frc though :-( !

Pool diving was pretty interesting, doing hangs then waiting for contractions & going for max no fins. Not enjoyable, but then again are dynamics ever enjoyable?? Got to about 80% of my max WITH fins on inhale, but not very psyched for pool stuff so not good examples probably.

I always kind of wonder if a sort of middle line between frc and inhale diving wouldn't yield good results, or if it would just give you the worst of both worlds...?

Fred - soon splashing about again

[TampaBrian]

can I FTC breath hold in shallows or dry and achieve better results or safer practices than with no breath up and one good single attempt. There was a lot of talk 6 months ago about no breath up holds.

[laminar]

A recommendation for those of you trying FRC as something new:

Pick an "easy" depth (say 8-14m) in which you don't strain to equalize and one that you know you can surface from fairly quickly if you misjudge your air.

Find a lung volume/ballast combination that allows you to sink after 1-2 gentle dolphin kicks or arm pulls. Try to do these as relaxed as possible.

The main thing to relearn is your energy expenditure on the way down. Spend weeks on this, at least. If you can dive down a slope and crawl along the bottom with your fingers, that's ideal.

Use frenzel (learn it if you can't). If you repeat the SAME depth over and over again on FRC you should find that your ability to equalize without tension or effort will improve. Ideally, you would avoid any packing for statics or any other discipline during this period (although that is entirely up to you - I would).

You may experience a variety of sensations at this shallow depth. In my opinion you should allow for enough time to:
-"teach" your body to blood shift earlier and earlier by diving FRC all the time
-allow for your RV to get smaller gradually over time (negatives not necessary for this purpose)
-practice energy conservationn with efficient technique (very important)
-learn new sensations in lungs and body on FRC (what does an urge to breathe feel like and mean when you've made no effort to descend?)
-avoid pushing the time to contractions in the beginning. Aim to prolong your time without contractions (use the same natural breathing pattern every time- that's vital) by using less energy during your dive.

It can take a long time to recalibrate your diving style to FRC. The first thing you may notice is that doing any work at depth burns your oxygen very fast. That defeats the benefits of FRC. Making the descent similar to static apnea is the secret that allows the body to blood shift to its fullest and make the ascent as anaerobic as possible. If you move around and waste energy, you won't feel like going deep is possible.

After a while, IMHO, the blood shift trumps everything else, but that takes time. In the Bahamas I was providing primary safety freedives on FRC to 20m. I would NOT have done that a year ago. The blood shift is strong enough that I could sprint down and then wait for a long time and still have air left to provide good safety. On Dave's super long dive (the 4 minute dive), I think my total dive time was 1'45-2'00". I had one or two contractions in the last five metres. Two or three years ago, when I was first trying FRC, I would have aborted at 50 seconds or so because it just hadn't become familiar to me and I hadn't optimized my technique. The comp safety dives were simply extended recreational dives. When I dive recreationally I rarely experience contractions (that's my safety margin). In a competition setting, with two secondary safety divers (like Simon!) to back me up, I can endure another 20-40 seconds of discomfort for the sake of the athlete coming up. Nice to know that recreational dive practices can prepare you for more demanding dives.

In fact, after two and a half (or three, I'm not sure) years of FRC recreational diving and no competitive dives or training, I was able to achieve some better than expected distances in the pool at the start of a training cycle. I've done no static breath holds or tables or specific training. What I think makes the difference is that my body has become used to being at pressures greater than atmospheric from the very beginning of the dive (even when you are breathing at the surface, for example). There's no time when my lung volume exerts a pressure on the heart/lungs/etc that is greater than the water (ie. packing). So the blood shift happens faster and faster.

Unless you're already in great shape, have a strong blood shift, and can adjust your technique quickly, you should allow for a year to work on FRC. It's totally worth it!

Pete

[laminar]

Forgot to mention that once you become adept at equalizing at the shallow depth with Frenzel, your Frenzel limit will decrease. Obviously, the mouthfill is the most efficient and fail-safe way to equalize on FRC, but it is possible with enough time to adjust gradually to frenzel quite deep without a mouth fill.

[laminar]

Another small thing: Diving twice a week during this phase will really accelerate your progress, even if you don't do many dives in a session. Once a week will help, but it won't be nearly as beneficial in the long term.

[TampaBrian]

i appreciate the info, but what about those of us just looking do be able to have longer holds out of water. FRC, Tables, or No Breath-up Holds?
Anxious to restart training soon but not until I have a good idea of what i should do for only out of water or surface holds. I have a very simple goal of 5 minutes, 6 tops out of water. My PB is 4:00 out of water and that was when i was doing breath ups and tables and all that non lasting stuff.
Any info is appreciated.
-Brian

[Jon]

Peter,

My question is on just how big of an exhale you do when diving this way.

While playing around with this all winter, in shallow water, I felt the blood shift after a single dive, or two at the most, and really liked how easy the decent was- plus, I was able to dump a full 10 pounds off of my winter weight belt.

I found my self taking a big breath, exhaling completely, and then diving. Re-reading through many of these posts it sounds like other divers are taking some type of partial inhale before they dive- which would extend both my depth and bottom time.

So, how big an inhale/exhale do you take before decent?

Thanks,

Jon

[laminar]

Originally Posted by TampaBrian

i appreciate the info, but what about those of us just looking do be able to have longer holds out of water. FRC, Tables, or No Breath-up Holds?
Anxious to restart training soon but not until I have a good idea of what i should do for only out of water or surface holds. I have a very simple goal of 5 minutes, 6 tops out of water. My PB is 4:00 out of water and that was when i was doing breath ups and tables and all that non lasting stuff.
Any info is appreciated.
-Brian

Hi Brian,

I'm not sure I understand. You want to be able to hold your breath for longer out of the water? Or do you mean how to cross training because of a lack of depth?

Tell us more about your situation and training - do you prefer to hold your breath dry rather than wet?

Pete

[laminar]

Originally Posted by Jon

Peter,

My question is on just how big of an exhale you do when diving this way.

While playing around with this all winter, in shallow water, I felt the blood shift after a single dive, or two at the most, and really liked how easy the decent was- plus, I was able to dump a full 10 pounds off of my winter weight belt.

I found my self taking a big breath, exhaling completely, and then diving. Re-reading through many of these posts it sounds like other divers are taking some type of partial inhale before they dive- which would extend both my depth and bottom time.

So, how big an inhale/exhale do you take before decent?

Thanks,

Jon

Obviously, how much you exhale is subjective. And there are other factors like body composition (inherent buoyancy) and wetsuit thickness/ballast to take into account. There's definitely an advantage to being slim and not wearing a suit when it comes to FRC diving, but it is not essential. Consider that I've done most of my recreational diving in the last year and a bit in a 6.5mm/5mm combo without fins. And usually with a camera.

I also think that the specific lung volume is not crucial and that there is a range - this range gets fairly narrow with experience.

So sit comfortably in a chair or lie down. Breathe softly through your nose. Relax your breath so that your tidal volume becomes apparent. Your diaphragm should barely move only slight movements in your lower diaphragm. Definitely do not chest breathe here. This is close to your final lung volume.

Now take a deep breath through your nose again and simply relax your diaphragm completely (it will feel like a downward shrug of your shoulders).

This could be your final lung volume.

Here's where you experiment. After the inhale/exhale-shrug, inhale slightly - barely a sip. I would describe it as a momentary flaring of the nostrils that allows some air into the lungs.

Through a snorkel or through your mouth, this would be a very small sip. The sip can vary in quantity. Sometimes I will actually sip air and let it into my lungs and other times I will primarily fill my mouth up with as much air as can fit (ie. for a shallower dive or a deep line dive).

The key with this type of diving is that the final amount of air (within the tidal volume range) doesn't make much of a difference in the dive time/depth/02 supply. Dive response is the key. But taking too much air in will make the descent harder and retard the dive response. There may be times when that's a trade off to use.

I would say that if you are exhaling fully and going down, that it too little air in your lungs. The guiding principle for me is that FRC should feel comfortable. FRC is a misleading term. In fact, I would like to rename FRC diving as something else. I've written a new term down that I liked long ago, but now I can't remember it!

FRC should feel like a gentle stretch at first. That's why I recommend sticking to shallow depths in the beginning. Because then you can really learn to refine and tune your lung volume.

Hope that helps.

Pete

[TampaBrian]

My pool goes to 8 feet, i'm not interested in diving any deeper either. I just want to increase my breath holding ability for recreational purposes. not interested in dynamic or anything, so what would everyone recommend for this? 6 months ago i could hit 4:00 however, i stopped training with tables because its just too cumbersome. Would FRC be better or static with no warmup on one 80% breath? OR..would i be better off just sticking to the tables?