Point of NO return?

[laminar]

Cliff,

A variable ballast dive doesn't seem to me the best way to evaluate the proper weighting you need for constant ballast (although that was probably not the point of the exercise). If you had tried to swim down to 90 feet in your 7mm with minimal weight you would probably exhausted yourself trying to reach that depth.

I still don't agree that ditching your weightbelt is something that comes naturally to people when they are panicked or in trouble unless they do it regularly. If you think of any kind of emergency training, you always practice exactly what you should do in case something bad happens. So how many of you have practiced ditching your weightbelt at depth to see what happens? I agree that for certain depths it is a useful tool but only if it's at your disposal (you actually think of doing it). Think of the person (true story) that learned artificial respiration on a live person and instead of ventilating by pinching the person's nose and blowing into their mouth, they blew on the person's cheek to avoid "germs" or whatever, which is what they were taught. That person was in a rescue situation later on and what did he do? He tried to save the person by blowing on his cheek and not into his lungs. Same with the half-thrusts for CPR. That's why they teach CPR and AR on dummies, now.

I've only ditched my weightbelt a few times and it was for fun. I was wearing two picasso suits in winter and wanted the extra buoyancy from 40 feet to breach the surface with my monofin. Let me tell you that getting back down was a chore!

I still don't think that at 50m if my ear drum explodes and I get disoriented that I'll have the presence of mind to undo my weightbelt and that I can drift to the surface like a balloon. I think I would keep on sinking. And what if I was at 65m? Sure it will make my ascent easier, but since I don't practice that at depth (maybe I should?) I don't consider it a first line of self-rescue. A depth line is much more useful for self-rescue since I'm personally more familiar with it and would grab it right away in that case. I've used it before, so I feel confident that I would have a good chance of doing it in an emergency.

So I say whatever self-resuce methods you want to depend on, practice them! Otherwise you're just fooling yourself into a fasle sense of security.

Everyone weights themselves differently. I've always been pretty light, only 6 lbs for a 5mm. Early on I had equalizing problems around 30m and I hated the feeling of sinking faster than I could equalize. That was something that definitely led to a panic zone for me. Since then I've cut down the weight. Now I'm neutral from what seems to be 15m-25m and I only start sinking fast at 35-40m.

Pete

[Okke]

Originally posted by laminar


A depth line is much more useful for self-rescue since I'm personally more familiar with it and would grab it right away in that case. I've used it before, so I feel confident that I would have a good chance of doing it in an emergency.

Ok Pete, i understand it is more safe with a rope then without. The only thing is that i usualy dont have a rope with me, cause i freedive where and whenever i can. For a deepdive in an unfamiliar place i don't know how deep i will go so for me i think i would follow your advice in training to drop the belt, cuase i actually never had to .

As i'm freediving since 1978 (i even have a picture of it :P) i think a got a little experience the only thing is that nowadays i'm planning to look deeper in the blue and push myself to go a step deeper every time, just to explore my limits.

Would spare-air be a solution in case of an emergency? What are the consequences of using it, of course i understand you have to exhale on the ascend... see also post: Is it true? about this issue of getting spare-air.

Thanks too all the replying freedivers of the forum!

kke

[Cliff Etzel]

HEHE - The variable ballast was just for fun...

But I did effectively swim to 74 feet constant ballast and returned safely. I tried after that but every dive after that was difficult and had to abort after about 45 feet (Later that day I came down with a REALLY bad Cold - I figure that was the reason for the failed target depth of 100 feet)

Regarding your comments about not thinking about ditching your belt - this is where the clinic really began to pay off. This was a very serious topic for both Kirk and Brett - As I have said to many about this sport - it isn't for the lazy - physically or mentally. I realized that as I focused on the techniques for safe freediving taught by these two professionals, I was all of a sudden diving deeper and more relaxed, aware of my physiological processes and yet enjoying the view at depth.

It is hard to put into words, and is best experienced in person at the clinic to know what I am talking about.

Hope this clears this up...

[thin_air]

we had a post a while back about the use of spare air for freedinving in caves and closed environments and agreed that i probably wasnt a problem

the only problem would be that you need a o/w cert. to go to 100ft and past that a deep water cert. would be needed

oh well i guess if you acended slowly dcs wouldnt be a problem
and even if you had dcs it would be very mild and its better a little dcs then being dead at 100ft

lats

[Okke]

Originally posted by thin_air


...and its better a little dcs then being dead at 100ft

lats

I agree on that!

kke

[Simon Blampied]

My only concern with taking down spare air would that it would lead to you pushing yourself past your limits. It's all very well to say I wouldn't and that it is only there for an emergency, but personally if I had the canister with me and had a good dive I'd be tempted to take on an extra few metres sub conciously thinking 'no worries if something goes wrong I've always got the spare air'. Maybe that's just me, but can anyone truely say they wouldn't be tempted??

[Okke]

Originally posted by Simon Blampied


...taking down spare air would that it would lead to you pushing yourself past your limits.

I think it will indeed push your limits in a negative way. I hear nobody about having a safety jacket! That seems a pretty good solution to me. Even for the buddie who's with you at the moment. For example, when you get a SWB at 7 m. he can swim down to you and pop the jacket up, swoosh your in no seconds at the surface... Is this not a more safe solution? Do they exist (the jackets)?

kke

[tuomo]

You can propably get those jackets from any store specialized in sailing. Although youd have to remove little 'salt' cube from trigger so that it wont inflate the jacket when you go in the water.
I dont knnow if using such jacket would differ much from ditching the weight belt, but in situations where you're not heavily weighted this could be usefull.
Has anyone used such thing for freediving?

Tuomo

[thin_air]

when my dad was a chopper pilot for the reserve they used some of those jackets. Its a small CO2 cartrige on the botytom right of the jacket and you flip a switch and the jacket is filled. Poof...

even in a pool the guy breaking the surface from the bottom looks cool, i know it has noting to do with anything but...

oh and ya you probably would push your limits but we were talkin of using it for cave and tunnel diving in the previous thread so i dont think people go very far into those

oh well,
im out

[Kirk Krack]

Just to comment on something the crazy frenshmen said :>)

"We are basically bouyant". Not totally true. If you freedive without a wetsuit you probably feel bouyant because your 80% water and the "grease and air". I like the grease part :>) +

We are usually buoyant with a FULL lung full of air. Without a suit on in the water exahale to a relaxed normal volume or at the bottom of what is called your tidal volume. You'll sink! Unless of course your an mesomorph and are more towards the fatter side.

When you blackout in the water you'll probably let go of the full inhaled breath and sink. As you sink the air within your lungs compresses and you become more negative.

I veiw wearing a wetsuit even in warm-water as a safety piece of equipment. If you weight yourself for nuetral bouyancy at a minimum 10m with a full breath, then if you exhaled your neutral bouyancy is now probably around 7-8m depending on suit thickness, etc. It's a great thing to try. Go down to your neutral bouyancy and then exhale to a normal volume of air and now ascend until you find your new nuetral depth. Try again with no belt and find where your new neutral depth is and where if you exhaled you would be nuetral. What are your two safety depths in which you'll at least float to the surface for your buddy to help you?

If your buddy isn't meeting you and you don't drop your belt, you better make it to that depth and have a buddy that could reach you there. Most people could always make it to 15m on a deep target dive as an experienced or competitive freediver and basic or beginners could probably always make it to around 5m. where do you want to be able to signal to your buddy that they need to help you so as to avoid a blackout?

Most people would make at least 5m on a normal dive where they encountered problems. If not then you should have had your buddy meeting you between 20-10m depending on your dive or atleast have dropped your weight belt.

It's true that most people are still found with their weight belt on. Like the crazy frenshmen say's, "think about it", program it as an option in your head by visualization of your freediving before you enter the water. Don't just visualize the good stuff, but how about the possible problems that could occur. This really works and when it comes to mind, don't hesitate to at the minimum to undue the buckle.

Sincerely,

[Kirk Krack]

Oh ya,

A friend of mine who used to work at the IAFD office has developed a system he calls S.A.F.E.R. I forget what it stands for but basically it's a streamlined fitting vest that has a "deadmans" switch and a CO2 cartridge.

If your having problems, hit the switch and inflate the vest. If you "think" you might be having problems, engage the switch by keeping your hand on it and if you black out and release your hand the vest will inflate. If you inflate and don't have a problem, simply swtich out the cartridge with another and continue diving.

Great for all types of freedivers but especially for spearfisherman who might get caught at depth a little longer or deeper or are fighting a fish to the surface and need the assistance.

Unfortunatley with spearfishing your attention is out in the water "hunting" rather that listening to what you body is telling you or that voice screaming in the back of your head :>)

Sincerely,

[sebastian]

Hi every body.

After this coment from Kirk I wanted to coment another simpler but I still dont know how efective "dead man switch"

I stitched a big piece of cloth with velcrom in it to my belt, then I wraped a 2 kg weight with the other part of the velcrom, so I can remove that weight wenever I want and then replace it.
I also carry a spare weight in my float.
Every time I started to ascend I would remove the weight and keep it in my hand, if something happens to me I would jast drop it, becoming much more buoyant. If nothing happens I place it back in the belt.

I tried it last weekend, unfortunately in the second day diving it got released in the descend and went to the bottom. As the bottom of this reservoir is about 100 mts I might leave it there for some time.

I continued diving with the spare weight. Later this week I´ll buy a better quyality velcrom (3m) and keep working on it.


Regards,
Sebastian