138m no fins

[3.14]

Hi!

Now the results are online: http://aidanl.org/htmltonuke.php?fil...-eindhoven.htm

I am wonderng why dynamic without fins get the same points for the same distance as with fins. What is the rationale behind this?

pi

[Fred S.]

Interesting stuff Eric! I thought that taking iron-supplements could be really harmfull in the long term, just like Hydro's site is suggesting.

And if your statements are correct, I might have a low hemoglobin level. And just to be sure, I'll have it tested soon. That's because I do hypoxic training, and I am a vegetarian (probably the only one in the freediving community )

So perhaps this might be the key in making a jump ahead in my performances, cause I'm on a plateau for about a year now.

Occasionally I take Solgar's "pure amino acid chelated iron" (25 mg). Do you think they can do the job, or do you have other (smarter) suggestions to improve my possibly low hemoglobin level???

Fred S.

[pim]

The things I'm afraid of with iron-supplements is the damage to the liver etc....and the trouble I'm having when using iron for a couple of days is that stoods get thin (more or less diarrhoea).....but if I can get iron in on an adapted diet....hmmmm, better let my blood test first.


and Fred you won't be the only vegetarian freediver in this world....I know more and as you know I'm NOT one of them....I eat the plastic octopus tentacles and love those heavy steaks.

Greetings and keep breathing,

Mad Pim

[efattah]

Iron Calculations

Suppose you are an anemic freediver, with Hb = 12.0 g/dl. You start training, hoping to get better. You hope to reach the standard of 18.0g/dl, even though Andean natives at altitude have up to 25 g/dl.

So, you want to increase from 12.0g/dl to 18.0g/dl hemoglobin concentration. You have 5 litres of blood (approx).
So, an increase of 6.0g/dl of hemoglobin * 50 decilitres of blood = 300g of hemoglobin.
So, your body needs to manufacture 300 grams of hemoglobin (not to mention any daily losses of hemoglobin).
You lose about 1mg of Iron per day.
Hemoglobin is 0.33% iron. So, to manufacture 300 grams of hemoglobin requires 300g*0.0033 = 0.99g Iron = 990mg of Iron.
So, your body needs 990mg of Iron to manufacture 300 grams of hemoglobin.
Iron absorption from standard iron supplements is less than 1%.
Iron absorption from vegetable sources of iron (i.e. potato skins, green vegetables), is also less than 1%.
So, to actually ABSORB 990mg of iron from vegetables sources or from standard iron supplements, you would need to eat 100 times that amount (because of the 1% absorption), so you would need to eat 0.99g * 100 = 99 grams of iron.
Suppose you eat a diet high in vegetable sources of iron. This provides about 10mg of elemental iron in raw form per day. You also take your 18mg iron supplement per day. So, you get 28mg of elemental iron per day, but it is only absorbed 1%.
So, you absorb 2.8mg of iron per day, but you lose 1.0mg per day, so you gain 1.8mg per day: AND THIS IS FOR THE PERSON WHO TAKES IRON SUPPLEMENTS AND EATS A DIET HIGH IN VEGETABLE SOURCES OF IRON!!!
Gaining 1.8mg per day, you need 990mg to build 300g of hemoglobin, so if you do enough apnea to stimulate blood cell production, it would still take:
990mg / 1.8mg = 550 days
So it would take 550 days to increase your hemoglobin from 12.0g/dl to 18.0g/dl, even if you did apnea every day, and took iron supplements every day, and ate lots of vegetable foods containing iron every day.
If you wanted to reach the hemoglobin level of an andean native, it would take 1192 days of training with this diet & these supplements.
If you were a vegetarian who took no iron supplements and didn't specifically eat foods rich in iron, your hemoglobin would never increase, no matter how long you trained for. This is why Laminar and I were still anemic after 3 years of training.

Taking iron supplements causes stomach irration, nausea, and feeds bacteria in the blood, which can make you sick.

So, it is not a simple problem.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[Walrus]

Hi Eric,

does this mean that red meat is the best source of iron, ie get better absorption from this ?
How does it compare to leefy greens & iron supplements ?

Or does anyone else know ?

Thanks,
Wal

[efattah]

Liver has the most iron, but it has too much vitamin A, so if you ate lots, you would develop vitamin A toxicity. Red meat has absorbable iron, but again you would have to eat an enormous (unhealthy) amount in order to get what you need! Plus, you would be exposed to all the hormones & chemicals that the animals are exposed to, etc...

The iron in red meat and liver is about 10% absorbed.

I made a small mistake in my last calculation: the 28mg of iron (from veggies & supplements) is 1% absorbed, so you get 0.28mg of iron actually absorbed, which means that it would take even longer than I predicted...




Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[hydro]

How much red meat do the Andean people eat? In other words how do they get their iron?

Hydro

[aquanaut]

I once tried taking liquid iron supplements to raise my hemoglobin level, which I understand has a much higher rate of absorption (vs. pill form). I quit after a couple of months after not really noticing a difference. However, at the time it was for UW hockey. Now that I freedive I would have a more object means determining its effectiveness. I tried to find information on exactly how much higher, but could only find biased manufactures claims of 25-75%. Anyone have any unbiased information on this? One further disadvantage of liquid iron is it tends to discolour your teeth, however it’s nothing a trip to the dentist doesn’t fix.

Eric – with your increased hemoglobin level, have you noticed any improvement in your breath hold?

[Ben Gowland]

This is some very interesting stuff about Iron - I thought I would add a couple of bits of info that may be of help.

Myoglobin needs iron too - which makes matters worse

Iron is reused constantly rather than excreted - which helps.

The body stores it (chelated) so that it can be mobilised - which is good, because it means you can increase your haemoglobin without taking any supplements.

Ben

This has nowt to do with 138m no fins though does it? It is a shame that discussions like this don't get split off into new threads so that people could learn more - thoughts stephen/cliff?

[Fred S.]

Eric, your explanation of hemoglobin build up is not very encouraging...

Are you sure that the build up can't go faster than 550 days or more? I mean, cyclists and speed-skaters often do altitude training for a couple of weeks and this really seems to help for most of them.

Or do you have a smart way to fix this problem??

Fred