Should AIDA Allow Sambas in Competition?

[CEngelbrecht]

Don't know if it has been brought up already, but within AIDA there circulates a document originally authored by Frenchman Jean Waldmann. This document lists various criteria in the categories "Blackout", "Samba", "Fatigue" & "Clear", the latter two being acceptable. "Cardiac arrest" f.i. is labeled "Blackout" (!) and so forth. The purpose of the document is to act as a an aid to judges when deciding on exits

I'm enthusiastic about this document and use it as a Danish judge, because it brings at least some level of objectivity into the judgment of, in particular, samba. Personally, I think AIDA should just include Waldmann's list into the regulations and make the various distinctions official. No more subjectivity.

I have attached the document to this post, it's in .xls. It's a bit outdated as compared to present regulations, but still it gives you guys a hint.

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen

[Jorg]

Ivan,

Some italians still participate in AIDA competitions! I really did see Davide Carrera in Cyprus! ;-)

[icarus pacific]

Originally posted by ash
I believe that all the participants want is consistency in the way they are judged, same as in any sport.

judging whether someone is having a samba is very subjective.

And there's your problem. As with the Olympics, the issue of subjectiveness is always present to some degree. Perhaps it's more noticable in freediving owing to the smaller venue. That and judges with agendeas despite having "clear"guidelines...

[donmoore]

Its funny how all of sudden this is a topic I can relate too. I just got back from a great experience at the Performance Clinic with Kirk and Martin and was judged that I Samba in all of my longest static attempts. The reason was blue lips and shaking of the lower lip. This was quite a surprise to me because I came up earlier than I normally do (usually I hold past the worst contractions to where I’m still getting them, but they are not as hard).

They told us to reach out and grab the pool edge and bring ourselves to an upright position for the last of the hold. The look of my Sambas were not helped by my partner in my first two attempts who thought it would be good for him to shove my right leg under me as I was coming upright. This made me jerk to regain my balance. He is a great guy, and it was my fault for not communicating to him better.

We got to watch a little of our performances in class which resulted in Kirk changing his mind and judging my last static as legal. This tied Scott Turgeon at 4:30 for the best class static. It wasn’t a competition, but put 6 guys together doing physical tasks that are measured and what’s going to happen? I felt I could have done 5:00 on that attempt, but came up at 4:30 just because I had not had a legal one yet.

After much thought and watching myself on tape, I think the problem was is I get a strong blood shunt quickly. I lose circulation in my hands and feet with the slightest of coolness. My lips were blue before I even attempted the static and after being in cool water and low oxygen my body simply shut the blood and oxygen to unneeded body parts, which included the lips. This leads me to the conclusion, that if I ever compete in cold water, I am going to need to find a way to keep my lips warm.

We discussed the AIDA’s reasoning for the no samba rule in class. I totally agree with their view that its bad publicity to shows people winning with Sambas, but at the same time I see the subjectiveness of judging what is and what is not a Samba. For now, it looks like anyone who wants to compete needs to work on their acting as well as their physical capacities. That’s all right with me as long as I could keep my lips warm. Does anyone know if it would be legal to put a piece of neoprene over the lips?
don

[samdive]

I was one of the many DQd in cyprus for LOMC and whilst I'm sure I didn't do much more than shrug a shoulder, if that, I didn't challenge it as a) it didn't feel like the most comfortable dive ever and b)Herbert Nitsch told me to spend the money on beer instead...
BUT lots of other people did challenge it, some lost the money but more amazingly, some got it overturned. One of the Brits had a decision of 3 red cards out of four overturned... something is wrong there. As far as I know, Howard has said that unless AIDA change the rules by Cyprus next year to give a clear yes/no on the surface (he will have a live feed camera from the bottom to check for rope infringements) he will not have AIDA judges there. And to be honest who cares!
Someone once told me that the definition of a samba was "something that you would have most likely drowned from if it had happened to you on your own in the ocean". Not to many people drown from shrugging a shoulder, stary eyes or blue lips...

Sam

[stevevidar]

The negative publicity argument might not be so good. There are always going to be people blacking out at competitions and if the media is there they can film it and show it, regardless if the winner has a samba or not. What the AIDA should do is a better job publishing that there is no evidence that Sambas and even short-term black outs are unhealthy and the sport of freediving has some real health benefits.

Its like we are trying to hide a part of sport just because the general public may not understand it, when they are going to see it anyway. So we should be honest about how we feel about it.
Steve

[flyboy748]

Although I'm new to the sport and have never competed, I feel that clear guidelines to what constitutes a samba are required. Also if an athlete wants justification on why she/he was DQ'd (referring to Silvia Da Pon and others) it should be available. I realize that a bulletproof system with no subjectivity is most likely simply not available, however I believe that things could be better than they are.

As Don pointed out, working on your acting would seem to be necessary before a comp! I'd hate to get DQ'd for a shrug, shiver, blue lips ect. when I'm really fine! Karma to you Sam (If I could but I gotta spread it around!) for calmly 'agreeing' with the judges decision.

My vote goes to making the judging in regards to samba less subjective. If I could I'd vote for clear guidelines for Samba as well. Maybe this is the same thing! Safety obviously is paramount and I'm not sure if the rules should be less restrictive than they are, however I do believe clarification on this issue is required.

Aaron

[fpernett]

My opinion
I think the whole problem is with subjectiveness of the judging. I you look the exit evaluation document, there are descriptions in different places (samba and fatigue) that are similar.
For me the samba is the incapacity of keeping the airways out of the water by the apneist alone. This is just for security. For example if an apneist comes after a 65 meters CW dive, and just remove his mask after 30 seconds, is he in a life-threatening situation?. No; so, what is the problem with that. Or if he is lip shaking but normal respiration, No.
The security problem doesn't relates on how "good" the diver looks, is with the sittuations that are life-threatening. A diver shaking the whole body and sinking is a samba and has risks for the apneist. A blue lips or tics will not kill anyone.
I think SAMBA should not be allowed, what AIDA have to do is to define more objectively what we call a samba.

[efattah]

I would like to see a rule where in the case where the athlete was disqualified, the official results MUST show a clear description of the disqualification. For example, the results of a competition could show something like this:

1. Pernett 98m 98pts Clean
2. ....

30. ...

66. Dover 88m 0pts DQ: Unable to keep airway above surface
67. Tweed 86m 0pts DQ: Left hand shaking badly while trying to remove mask
68. White 81m 0pts DQ: Head twitched strongly back and forth while trying to recover
69. Simson 79m 0pts DQ: Blackout at 3m below surface
70. Craig 76m 0pts DQ: Blackout at surface while trying to recover


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[JimGlynn]

I agree with changing the rules. Samba should be serious impairment-head going under water, uncontrollable shaking, etc. Anything less becomes too subjective.
Jim

[efattah]

The day that AIDA makes the samba rule more objective will be a historic day for freediving, and it would (and will) be the first step in unifying the two remaining freediving organizations (AIDA and FREE).

The people in the poll have spoken! Now AIDA must act.

Personally, if the rule is made more objective, I will be far more motivated to actually train and compete in an AIDA competition.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[welwichia]

the question that strikes me in this thread is: the way the rules were applied/interpreted in Cyprus was almost as if we are saying the athletes should present themselves in perfect composure after having just pushed themselves and their bodies near/ to the max ... is this at all realistic ? (think for example of the "LMC" most 100m sprinters exhibit after the finish) Secondly, we all accept that the mental state is an integral part of a good freediving performance - any diver being in a state of intense focus (i.e. "in the zone") can hardly be said to appear "normal" in the sense of usual everyday behaviour - how do we distinguish this from someone "loosing it" ...
While I do not have much experience in competitive freediving, I do have some background in neuro-psychology and found it quite amazing how judges could "know" after 30 seconds or so the mental state of what are essentially complete stangers to them ... I do not think any health professional would be willing to make an authorative statement based on this mini- interaction - just think of the people around you ... some are perpetually fidgety, others always appear "dopey" or spaced out - surely that must be taken into account in any appraisal of mental states and/or behavioural control. So the decision can only end up looking unjustified, arbitrary and subjective with the resultant disappointment and frustration.
So, perhaps we should think of some test/task the diver has to complete within a certain time after surfacing (I have no ideas as to what shape of form this could take atm) - this would take some of the subjectivity out of the equation: did the diver complete the test - yes or no? Instead of: did he look good/strong/in control/smiley while doing it ... just did he manage to complete it?

just an idea ....

Best regards

[Longfins]

Here's a suggestion: Right after an athlete break through the surface from a dive, have each of them pick up (immediately or within 1-3 seconds, say) and hold a raw egg for a specified period of time and hands it to a judge. This to me demonstrates fine motor control. If he/she have trouble finding / picking it up, drops it, or crushes it, the dive is invalid.

(Of course there'll be debate about gloves vs hands, method of holding egg, cracked eggs, etc.)

[ash]

Originally posted by icarus pacific
And there's your problem. As with the Olympics, the issue of subjectiveness is always present to some degree. Perhaps it's more noticable in freediving owing to the smaller venue. That and judges with agendeas despite having "clear"guidelines...

Hi Sven

You're absolutely right, judging something like this will always be subjective but from what we are seeing in this thread, the judging in some cases seems to be inconsistent. More so I think than would be acceptable in Olympic figure skating or gymnastics?

Eric's suggestion that the official results show a clear description of the disqualification is a good one IMO. It's a start at least.

Ash

[st3fan]

I don't think that the description thing will work. Judges would have their standard phrases and the uncertainty would be the same.

Freediving is not Ice Skating. As looking good is not the topmost priority, all we need is a clear protocol for an exit.

At the moment some of the judges are talking about "shooting-quotes" and a judge who's quote is below the average is considered betoo soft.....
Something is definitly wrong here.