Should AIDA Allow Sambas in Competition?

[bobbybuttr]

or example of the "LMC" most 100m sprinters exhibit after the finish

I have heard it said that 800m is the most physiological similar foot race to freediving. Take a look at those guys after they cross the finish line and are not being judged on how they look.

[ash]

Originally posted by st3fan
I don't think that the description thing will work. Judges would have their standard phrases and the uncertainty would be the same.

You may be right but it would make it very easy to check the decision using video (if it was available) and if the diver questioned the judge’s call.

Ash

[efattah]

The good thing about the 'description' method is that if the 'problem' with the diver can't even be described in words, then it probably was not worth disqualification. For Silvia Da Pon, I would like to hear the 'description.' If the only problem was 'gazing into space,' and that is not on the 'list' of allowable problems, then it would be obvious.

I don't think that judges would develop 'standard phrases.' You can't say, 'diver's head was shaking' as your standard phrase, because the video will show what really happened. Whatever your descriptive phrase is, the video must confirm it.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[loopy]

Yeah I agree - that system would remove a little of the subjectivity... it'd be relatively simple to implement as well, and what possible excuses are there for not having to specify a reason for the DQ?

[naiad]

I almost always get blue lips/hands in cold water even before holding my breath, and sometimes also during dry statics. I didn't know this could lead to disqualification in a competition (I have never competed, but want to give it a try). Surely if there are no other signs of trouble this is not a good reason to DQ an apneist.

naiad

[Jussi]

Originally posted by naiad
I almost always get blue lips/hands in cold water even before holding my breath, and sometimes also during dry statics. I didn't know this could lead to disqualification in a competition (I have never competed, but want to give it a try). Surely if there are no other signs of trouble this is not a good reason to DQ an apneist.

naiad

If you look at the exit evaluation document (page 2 of this thread), "Extreme pallor or cyanosis, without any other symptoms" is mentioned as a symptom of fatigue, not samba. So you would not be disqualified in a competition for cyanosis.

[Herbert]

Originally posted by stevevidar
What the AIDA should do is a better job publishing that there is no evidence that Sambas and even short-term black outs are unhealthy and the sport of freediving has some real health benefits.

Its like we are trying to hide a part of sport just because the general public may not understand it, when they are going to see it anyway. So we should be honest about how we feel about it.
Steve

I second Steve’s argument!
Why are we trying to hide a LMC or BO?
If you see a summary of a formula one race you will see all the accidents, because this is what the spectators want to see.
If you are honest, even most freedivers find the only interesting thing in a static competition are the BO, and the LMC’s are even funny – this sounds cruel but freedivers knowing that this is perfectly safe and common, see the funny aspect of some spectacular LMC. Nothing wrong with that – is it?

Although I definitely agree that the LMC and BO rule should change, I want and have to support Aida by saying that the rules are quite clear and the judging seems very objective to me. I strongly disagree to many opinions that people where judged DQ because of blue(black) lips or strange looks. Those signs are sometimes the only thing one can see on a video clearly, but not the reason for DQ!

I have seen many athletes being DQ which claim they have not been even close to their limit, but it was more then clear to me that it was definitely a LMC or even a BO according to Aida rules. It is NOT that one just looks bad! There are small clear signs, which (most of the time) show a LMC and are a lot different from shivering or balance problems. One can not see those small but clear signs of LMC without having seen many many LMC live!

On one hand there are usually one or two judges who have not seen too many DQ before – how should they know those small signs of LMC and how do you want to explain other less experienced freedivers why they were DQ, if those signs are not distinguishable without a lot of experience.

I think most protests for DQ where given OK, because one could not see it on the video, not because the performance was OK.

How the heck do you explain a LMC to the Public?
My 8’07” static DQ in Ibiza was on TV many times in Austria (more often the any other dive), with the commend that I was DQ because of blinking with my eyes. Many people couldn’t understand the DQ even after me trying to explain. Most non freedivers even thought (were laughing) what stupid, childish,…. rules this sport has.

I saw a new freediver being DQ, who is absolutely sure his dive was OK. Even after me explaining to him that it is hard to see, but still clear, he was very pissed off for a long time. He and a lot of others are so scared to be DQ that they just stare straight at the judges like frozen, because the think any suspect movement could be judged as a LMC.

According to the current rules I have seen a lot more performances which actually should have been DQ.

Depending on the conditions (waves) one could have a small LMC or not. More drastically, I could clearly see a LMC (2 contractions) in the muscle between the neck and the shoulder of and Aida judge. He was not DQ because of less experienced judges, but if he would have worn a suit (which he didn’t) nobody could have seen that anyway.

I think the rules should be a lot less strict. Even though I don’t think a LMC is desirable, it is no solution to say a mild LMC is OK. The only clear thing is LMC yes or no. I don’t see any safety problem in saying, if you can make it without help, it is OK. Even the rule (which is not yet implied, I think) that the face has to stay above the surface, seems to be to strict. I had a dive without fins where I was shortly sinking back in the water after surfacing, because of not wearing fins. There was nobody helping be, because it was clear that everything was OK, why should something like that be DQ? Even if someone inexperienced waits until it is clear that the athlete needs help, I doubt there will be any risk.

I don’t understand all that hyper-safety thoughts only going in a few directions. I think it is a lot more important to talk about the use of 100% O2 after deep dives, functional safety lines, lights in dark lakes …, those things really kill. I find it hard to believe that tinted goggles ore nose clips are live threatening.

[BlueIcarus]

I actually think that competitors in many cases knows more abut freediving physiology than judges

Weird situation

[donmoore]

Hebert,
It’s great to hear your thoughts. Thanks for sharing them with us. If you don’t mind, would you share what you try to do, under the current rules, to look good to the judges? Where do you look, facial expression, thoughts, etc.? I would love to hear others thoughts on this too.

Jussi,
I don’t know that much about it, but from what I have heard, blue lips are a sign to look for signs of LMC/Samba. A diver with good color in the lips is probably not going to be scrutinized as much as one with blue/purple lips.
Just my fear,
don

[flyboy748]

Quick question. LMC, does this not mean Loss of Motor Control?? If a diver can remove their mask and remain above water, how can they be said to have had a LMC? I must be misunderstanding something. Some people get ticks in their eyelids and/or neck for no apparent reason while completely relaxed! It would be unfortunate to get these during a comp!

Is there an explanation available for the LMC/Samba rule that I could look up or have explained? Or is it simply up to the judge to base on her/his experience and training what is and what is not a LMC/Samba?



thanks!
Aaron

[flyboy748]

Quick question. LMC, does this not mean Loss of Motor Control?? If a diver can remove their mask and remain above water, how can they be said to have had a LMC? I must be misunderstanding something. Some people get ticks in their eyelids and/or neck for no apparent reason while completely relaxed! It would be unfortunate to get these during a comp!

Is there an explanation available for the LMC/Samba rule that I could look up or have explained? Or is it simply up to the judge to base on her/his experience and training what is and what is not a LMC/Samba?



thanks!
Aaron

[loopy]

You bring up a good point Aaron - it is supposed to be about losing control, not about shaking or looking bad... what is an objective test for losing control? Maybe signing your name within 5 seconds of surfacing or something?

The problem that this raises however is that then there's an extra thing for the diver to worry about when they surface... it's not longer "surface, hook breathe, ok", it's "surface, hook breath, sign your name, do a dance, kint a jumper" type thing...

[Erik]

[QUOTEit's not longer "surface, hook breathe, ok", it's "surface, hook breath, sign your name, do a dance, kint a jumper" type thing... [/b][/quote]

I was told by a judge that my hook-breathing would probably get me disqualified in an international comp....then another international judge who witnessed the exact same performance said that it was a perfect recovery and that it showed that I was in complete control!
Don't tell me there is no subjectivity in AIDA judging
Erik Y.

[flyboy748]

Loopy,
I can see the problems this raises, and I wouldn't suggest a test to judge LMC. I was just thinking about how a diver could be judged for things like cyanosis, glassy eyes, possibly a shivery uncomfortable look ect. and how these are termed (sometimes) LMC.

Is there currently a criteria used by AIDA to judge LMC? Possibly something like the exit evaluation that has already been posted?

Erik,
Good... or should I say BAD example of the "standards" eh? Hard to believe that there is that much lack of uniformity on something as basic as hook breathing on recovery!

Aaron

[tylerz]

I think one of the funiest things is what does not seem to be clearly specified. Supposedly you are DQ if you show any sign of LMC.

Has it been clarified whether a contraction after you lift your head up or arrive at the surface counts as LMC?

Is it possible to accept that it is not an LMC, when after 4 minutes of your body undergoing contractions, it may take a few seconds for it to actually get enough oxygen to counter the CO2 acidity that is triggering the contractions. The body can keep having contractions after you breath.

During a competition dive I had a video review by the judges to determine whether I had LMC. 2 judges were leaning towards Samba because as one judge put it "your lungs seemed to move involuntarily". OK. Yes contractions are involuntary and they were so the whole 3 minutes of having them. The only reason they noticed my movement in my torso was because I had a bad habit of standing up immediately after a breath-hold previously.

Ended up there was nothing visible on the video so they let me go. However, had this been a national or international competition, they would not have let me go.

Tyler Zetterstrom