Two kinds of CO2/O2 tolerance?

[naiad]

I don't know whether this makes sense, but I think there are two different types of CO2 (and low O2?) tolerance. I will explain...

The first type is used in all apnea, but most of all in static. It is about contractions, urge to breathe, etc.

The second type is not normally useful for static, but only for dynamic and depth. It is about being able to keep moving with CO2/lactic acid buildup.

They seem to be quite separate, as some freedivers can do very good distances in dynamic, while their static times are not much over 3min. I am the opposite - I can do good statics, but I find dynamics very difficult. It is not so much about the pain of lactic acid, as I don't normally get a lot of pain, it is more of a weakness and tired feeling.

Most freedivers have a combination of both types of tolerance, but there are exceptions.

I would be interested in any ideas on this...

Lucia

[DeepThought]

For me I feel that the difference between those 2 tolerances is the rate at which CO2 is being produced.
For example (rated from fastest to slowest): doing apnea stair walking I'll accumulate CO2 (and lactic acid) the fastest (atleast that's what I feel) and will have the shortest yet most intense struggle phase. Practicing this made me "rise" to a new level of hypercapnia expiriences (the feeling of shaking muscles etc.).
After that comes apnea walking, in which only after doing apnea stair walking I managed to get to the same level of CO2 exposure.
Then comes statics with no breath-up which surprisingly resembles more the dynamic type of tolerance for me.
then an intense form of a CO2 table, in which it is much harder to get to the same CO2 level because it builds much slower so I guess it requires more patience(=stress sometimes).
After that comes normal statics and diving at the end since it's all fun to me.
Never had the chance of doing dynamics since I discovered freediving.

[jome]

All I can say is that I've increased my dynamic result a measily 20% while almost doubling static. And I still feel just as crappy as I used to, it's just that I'm not afraid to push that extra 20%. I also know other divers who have very meager dynamic results compared to their static. And of course the complete opposite...It propably has a lot to do with the fact that I hate doing dynamics (I don't like it because I suck, and I suck because I don't like it...sheesh).

So it is safe to say that static performance doesn't go hand in hand with dynamic. But this we already knew...

In general it seems that athletic types (such as ex-swimmers etc) are better suited for dynamic. My guess is that they are used to doing hard unaerobic work and their body is conditioned to it. They may not necessarily be good at all in static (although some are).

Couch potatoes like my self my be able to do a good static by finding proper relaxation, mental technique and having huge lungs, but once you include hard muscle work, it simply isn't as efficient. For the same amount of movement I produce more co2 and lactic acid. Not really surprising. Maybe for someone like me, the optimal method would be slower and more relaxed pace, where for someone like Peter Pedersen, a much faster pace seems to work. If I had a decent pair of stereos, I could try (although I get lactic acid problems much faster with stereos than mono).

I'm currently trying to improve this with more interval and sprinting type of training and repeated 80%-85% dynamics. We'll see what happens...

[Jee]

Hello Lucia,

I think, that being in good trim can help you with your dynamics. For me it works this way.

The static type is really different. For that you have to have a really good (mind) controll over your body, and mind. For that it is not needed to have well trained muscles - actually it could even be a difficulty, because with more muscle mass, the oxigen could decrease faster. With very good relaxation it is not a problem, and static become the game of the mind )of course between limits).

Jee

[Jee]

I agree with Jome.
I.e. our dynamics national record holder is Aniko (Florance here), who is also ex-swimmer (and she was[is] a very good swimmer, trained really lot). Static is not really is her strength, but I think - because static can be more easily learned, than dynamics - she can improve in that as well. It's a question of mind, a question of approach, attitude.

[naiad]

Originally Posted by jome

In general it seems that athletic types (such as ex-swimmers etc) are better suited for dynamic. My guess is that they are used to doing hard unaerobic work and their body is conditioned to it. They may not necessarily be good at all in static (although some are).

Couch potatoes like my self my be able to do a good static by finding proper relaxation, mental technique and having huge lungs, but once you include hard muscle work, it simply isn't as efficient. For the same amount of movement I produce more co2 and lactic acid. Not really surprising.

I think this could have something to do with it - the people who are good at dynamic are usually fit, while those who are only good at static may or may not be fit.

I am doing some serious swimming now, so if there are any improvements in my dynamics, I'll let you know...

Lucia

[derelictp]

I think one factor is that many freedivers have a bad swimming technique and it's difficult to correct.

SOME THOUGHTS:

I also belive that people with high anaerobic capacity is suited for dynamic and people that is better at aerobic work is better at static's, but that's just my belief from analyzing people.

Some people can do both and that's seems to be those who do good static's (the aerobic type, (ectomorph)) and make very slow/long dynamic's.

[naiad]

Last week I did some really hard dynamic training. It was my most tiring diving session so far. The pain lasted three days!

If I keep training it has to make a difference!

Lucia

[X-Fins]

Hi everybody, i,m agree with the idea that the people who train swimn or swimmingfin can do a good dynamic distance apneas. The people that doesn´t train their muscles systematically may be can do a good statics, for natural conditions and may be their muscles are not to big or developed so they don´t waste to much oxigen in rest position.

My experience told me that the people who use to train seriously (as Lucia right know !!! as she let us know) develop both conditions, the skill to move efficiently in the water and the improvement of the cardiores system. If you don´t train distance in the water forget to improve for to much statics good time that you can have.

Regards

[immerlustig]

some of my thoughts:

quote: ...the people who are good at dynamic are usually fit, while those who are only good at static may or may not be fit.

how much time does anyone really spend working on improving technique? and how much time is spent on physical conditioning? and that on top of the apnea training. static training is relatively easy and quick to train to good level. dynamics and cw isn't. swimmers have the advantage that they have learnt to move in water, techniques and concepts that then have to be converted to freediving (check out some swimming websites and see if you understand all that technical lingo).

i don't think that there is different types of co2 tolerance. holding a shorter time of contractions during dynamics comes from a much higher o2 consumption and co2 production. plus the mentioned lactic acid build up. o2-conservation during motion is very difficult to improve on but the benefits are lasting longer (like with any technical improvement).

all freedivers that i know who dive at very high level spend a lot of time refining the smallest details. if you like you can break down a duckdive or a turnaround into 20 seperate segments. i get the impression that most people rather increase the intensity of their training (not that there isn't a place for that) than improving their technique.

anyhow, just deviated off topic.

check out training schedules of swimmers. regional teams, not olympic. you'll probably be surprised how much time they spend training all year round. now if one was to apply as strict a training schedule for freediving...

but how many freedivers have access to facilities and time to train like that? the guys and girls who left cyprus with titanium stingers, obviously...

cheerio

r.