Get high and get on down: a response

[tylerz]

Hey Andy,

For what I was doing, it really was not a struggle at all and does not require any significant tolerance if one juggles the variables. It went something like this:

Jogging on the spot for a minute, SaO2=95% breathing normally. Not an all out max jog but not slow either. I could have easily increased the intensity. Hyperventilated 15-20 times, exhale, hold breath, SaO2 dropped to < 83% in less than a minute (if I remember correctly), discomfort came at nearly the same time, hyperventilated 5 times, exhale, hold breath, SaO2 bottomed at ~78%, rises to 82%, rapidly about faces and drops to 75% by which time I am beginning to feel discomfort, hyperventilate 4-5 times, exhale, hold breath, and repeated the same, SaO2 would drop to ~70% just after hyperventilating (due to lag in blood supply) then rise to ~78%, then drop rather quickly to ~70%. These cycles would probably take 20seconds in total.

Remember the key is that there is never a hold while the lungs have air in them, other than residual. Every hold is done on an exhale as much as can be ventilated without using special techniques. The inhales are only part of hyperventilation cycles. The CO2 ventilated removes the discomfort, so it should not be difficult to hold until O2 returns to lower end of threshold (if you worked it out with the delay factored in; the actual reading of the oximeter shows you roughly mid way in the drop when you probably feel the need to breath again).

Hope that helps.

Tyler

[tylerz]

Originally Posted by ADR

...which there is no way I could do using breath hold....this is not a mud slinging attempt as I wish there was a simpler way that worked for the majority of freedivers.

Andy

I don't quite follow your reasoning that there is no way you could do this under the conditions you have stated and why you don't think it would work for the majority of freedivers? It seems to me that your understanding of the breath hold cycle is that one is holding their breath in a manner that is extremely strenuous?

The breath hold section is just a cycle to limit the amount of oxygen to the blood, not a breath hold to push one's limits or endure any amount of CO2. Therefore I don't understand where the difficulty factors in?

As well, doing it for 30min or 90min, I don't think would be any more strenuous other than the normal strain of adding another 60min on. And why are you doing 90min anyhow? That seems like huge overkill. What type of exercise(s) are you doing for 90min?

Cheers,

Tyler

[tylerz]

I just completed a 5 min cycle, with extremely moderate jogging, no effort on breath holds, and the results had a consistent range SaO2 of 78%-83%. I just ate earlier, maybe making it that much easier to have a lowered SaO2. I hyperventilated 3 times half the time and 5 times the rest. I could have gone on all day performing that routine, only limited by physical exhaustion that would have set upon me as normal. To clarify the breath holds were not as long as I mentioned in previous posts. They were only 12seconds max. With the odd bit longer after a 5 breath ventilation. Variations in the depth of ventilations based on feeling.

I will try a similar routine but this time with an intense exercise.

Cheers,

Tyler

[tylerz]

Ok now for the intense workout,
I am sweating, feel like coughing up my dinner, but all in the name of science . Exercise sprinting on the spot, heart rate 160bpm+. No effort on breath holds, and the results had a consistent range SaO2 of 78%-83%. I hyperventilated 3 times half the time and 5 times the rest. Although I did find I could change the 3 breaths to 1/sec instead of 2/sec. Which was much more comfortable at that rate of exercise I found. Once again, I could have gone on all day performing that routine, only limited by physical exhaustion that would have set upon me as normal. The breath holds were only 6 seconds max.

I doubt anybody would have any difficulty with these routines.

Cheers,

Tyler

[Altitude Centre]

In the name of science, I tried the breath hold exercise. It works. I only tried one cycle, but got my SpO2 down to 81%. I may go to the gym and try a full set.

In Sport, when the heart rate monitor first came out I heard a story of a coach who remarked to his student "why are you bothering with that thing, it is a waste of time". We all know how popular heart rate monitors are in sport today. I think with more research exercise with different breathing techniques used in conjunction with pulse oximetery will provide a new modality in fitness training. Current research seems to suggest that light exercise whilst brething hypoxic air produces the greatest up-regulation of mitochondrial activity and stimulated human growth hormones to a level that can not be achieved with exercise in ambient (room) air.

[sebastien murat]

I think there could be other, perhaps more pertinent, issues than the upregulation of mitochondrial activity and obtaining increases in Hb during exercise. Most elite athletes have in fact a reduced haematocrit but elevated blood volume. This is necessary to better circulate large cardiac outputs during intense exercise. I think Mb is very important, since Mb increases muscle waste product buffering capacity -> increased aerobic endurance and delay the predominant switch to anaerobiosis.

However, to stimulate significant increases in [Mb] requires one to reach quite an elevated level of hypoxemia (hypoxia of the blood), since Mb does not desaturate very well at all, unlike Hb. Indeed, one would have to be quite unconscious or very "high" indeed to induce significant growth. Most studies of altitude acclimatization show no such increases. This could be achieved, however, through the application of apnea + cold (periphery) + exercise.

Taking it to the extreme, it could be argued that without a dive response (DR) the muscles aren't effectively able to use the oxygen bound to Mb. This is probably the reason why the DR even exists in the first place, to use otherwise unavailbale MbO2 stores.


Food for thought
Sebastien
Aust.

[Michael]

Tyler's method raises an interesting question that I have wondered about since this thread began. Is there a difference between the type and magnitude of adaptations one would expect from: (1) moderate levels of oxygen desaturation maintained over longer intervals, verses (2) more intense desaturation but maintained over shorter intervals?

Tyler's method seems to be a way of maintaining desaturation in low 80s high 70s for several minutes while exercising. While, the IHT program that Mark Harris followed, it seemed like he reached low 80s desaturation for only 20-30 seconds. At the further extreme, most trained freedivers could reach, with empty lung statics, saturation in the 60s and even 50s, but only for a short period.

So do we think it's better to reach really low saturation (60s and 50s) for short interval repeats, or more moderate desaturation maintained for longer periods? Or, perhaps a combination of both.

[efattah]

I believe more profound hypoxia for shorter periods is better. The reason is that studies have shown that HIF-1 alpha levels increase exponentially during profound hypoxia, even if the desaturation only lasts for seconds. HIF-1 alpha is the hormonal 'trigger' for hypoxia adaptations. Further, we already known that hypoxia/reoxygenation cycles are more important than continuous hypoxia.

[naiad]

Originally Posted by efattah

I believe more profound hypoxia for shorter periods is better. The reason is that studies have shown that HIF-1 alpha levels increase exponentially during profound hypoxia, even if the desaturation only lasts for seconds. HIF-1 alpha is the hormonal 'trigger' for hypoxia adaptations. Further, we already known that hypoxia/reoxygenation cycles are more important than continuous hypoxia.

Then apnea is the best way to train?

Lucia

[tylerz]

One more quick follow up:

Today I attempted to see, while performing medium exercise, what would be the lowest range I could stabilize my SaO2 using the technique I described recently. I managed to hold it in the 60%-70% range for a 5 minute exercise, without any significant difference in effort in terms of the breath-hold. However, as much effort as I was to induce on top of that via attempts to hold my breath longer and ventilate more, only caused me great discomfort and loss of stability in the range, including feeling on the edge of fainting. I performed this twice in seperate session attempts to get lower, but to no avail. Although I did not increase the exercise intensity.

Cheers,

Tyler

[cdavis]

Thanks to Tyler for a great idea. This is MUCH less uncomfortable than empty lung statics or apnea walking.

I tried this last night and it seems to work for me. Using fast walking as the exercise, I found I could maintain the process with a 20 second hold and 3-4 hyperventilations. I don't have an oxymeter, but the feeling I was getting was the same as at the end of half lung apnea walks, which I'm pretty sure is low o2. The difference is the feeling (and probably the o2 saturation) is more intense but much shorter in apnea walking.
Free time is often a limiting factor; I don't have a free hour a night to devote to this. Just an idea, would it be useful to combine this technque with a series of very low saturation events? For example, 15 mintes of the above with another 5 minutes of half lung apnea walks? That way, you get both and don't spend quite as much time.

Connor

[tylerz]

Hey Connor,

Thanks for the acknowledgment! I as well found it was quite easy for the legs to produce feelings in the same vein as when I would do apnea walks. As well the sensation increased while I did the more extreme 60%-70% exercise and also seperately increasing the exercise intensity did the same. Somebody else mentioned the 1 hour+ routine, however my expectation is that the largest benefit would come somewhere between 15-30min of performing this 3 times a week. 15min might be a 4min holding cycle with 1min regular exercise cycle repeated 3 times, with increased intensity and the lower range of SaO2.

Of course all speculation but relating to experiences with other exercise stress adaptations such as incurred from weight lifting, hiking and jogging for me personally.

Yet, I am not suggesting that diversifying by combining with another form of apnea, would not be a potential max benefit. I would expect that to be best.

Cheers,
Tyler

[ADR]

Originally Posted by tylerz

It seems to me that your understanding of the breath hold cycle is that one is holding their breath in a manner that is extremely strenuous?
Tyler

Tyler,

When I said "which there is no way I could do using breath hold" I wasn't meaning the breath hold itself was the hard part but rather using a breath hold technique to do this instead of a hypoxicator is difficult. To clarify what I'm doing (now complete) is a 20 day cycle of 90mins per day(5mins on/5mins off repeats) without exercise. The point I was trying to make is that if you are doing 90mins without exercise (standard Russian style IHT schedule) it is difficult to replicate this using a breathhold approach. The exhausting part about it is the hyperventilation and breathold repetition not the breath hold itself. Ventilating hard to reduce CO2 enough for that period of time is very exhausting....for me anyhow If you can do this session without effort then that's great, all I was saying is that I can't (20 days in a row) and I doubt most people could.

While questioning the value of 90min sessions and 20 consecutive days of sessions is fair it's not very relevant when what I was doing was comparing my sessions with the hypoxicator to equivalent sessions without one using breath hold. If someone WITH a pulse oximeter wants to try and replicate it then I'd be really keen to hear their results. 20 consecutive days of sessions on the hypoxicator sitting on the coach was actually really draining and I'm glad it's over .....now for the follow up blood work!!

Andy

[tylerz]

Hey Andy,

Thanks for clarifying!

Your statement regarding, ventilating CO2 being difficult for a broken up 45min, is possible since we all have differing abilities to ventilate CO2. But more important is your statement of not performing any physical activity, which as I stated as well, I could not get this technique to work under those conditions. That was the first thing I attempted.

I was responding to what seemed like your interest in finding a suitable technique towards adaptation for people in general, which I (mistakenly?) gathered from your statements, "...as I wish there was a simpler way that worked for the majority of freedivers." and "...for us mere mortals it's just too draining/fatiguing for that length of time(single session) and over 15-20 consecutive days." Therefore my response was targetted and attempting to be "relevant" not only towards you but to the general audience of "the majority of freedivers" and "mere mortals" as well, with that as the focus.

Can't wait to see your blood results!

Tyler

[ADR]

TZ,

Thanks for the explanation and I think your exercise approach is great and perhaps better for the majority of freedivers if it does actually produce adaptations, as IHT equipment and time commitments are a significant barrier to most. It will be the next thing I'll try if my coach potato approach shows up as being a red herring.

Your comments on CO2 venting are interesting as I hadn't thought of the potential double negative you have highlighted. My CO2 tolerance despite trying every training mechanism in the book continues to be terrible and this coupled with a potentially poor ability to vent CO2 could explain some training observations I've made. Can you shed any more light on "differing abilities to ventilate CO2"?

Thanks

Andy