Increasing failure depth

[ivan]

hi people

I was just wondering how much of an increase in failure depth you guys get from packing. I use the normal pinch and blow technique (spearo) anyway a while bak i did a dive to 39m using this method without packing, i had no air left watsoever. How much of an increase would I be likely to get just from packing ??. I would like to try it but i rarely get a chance to do deep dives.

Thanks

[jome]

Typically not that much 5-10 meters maybe? With the mouthfill, I'd say equalization would never be your limit...

You can roughly calculate it:

Let's assume you have 6 liter lungs.

Your failure depth is ~40, which is 5 bar pressure.

So your failure lung volume is 6/5 = 1.2l

Now if you packed 2 litres, you would start with 8 liters

8/1.2 = 6.66 bar, which would mean 56 meters

This is just a very straight forward estimate. Of course reality may be harsher, then again, you might pack more than that.

I assume that by "nose pinch" you mean the frenzel. I'm not saying it's impossible, but going to such depths with the valsalva would be rare and IMO going deeper by just packing and using valsalva you would seriously flirt with squeeze...But that's just my opinnion.

[ivan]

hi Jome

Yeah im pretty sure im just doin the standard valvalsa technique i just hold my nose and try and blow air out of it. I cant do the frenzel yet i have tried to learn it a few times before. So from your calculations packing an extra 2 litres could theoretically add 16m in terms of pressure. Sounds good mate i just gotta find the depth to have a go.

cheers

[Walrus]

Hi Jome,
it is possible to go quite deep with packing & Valsalva, I can go to about 60 - 65m without using the mouthfill. It depends more on your diaphragm flexibility, ie reverse packing etc.

[jome]

I think you must be doing the frenzel if you use reverse packing. Reverse packing would not work for the valsalva, because your airways have to remain open (which by definition makes packing or reverse packing impossible).

I'm sure it is possible to go pretty deep with valsalva. But I don't even want to imagine the effort to do so. Learning the Frenzel and eventually mouth fill would just make life so much easier...But no one seems to believe it untill they've tried

In fact, I claim that quite a bit of divers use the Frenzel technique without knowing it. I used to think I was doing valsalva too, but later while learning the frenzel realized, that I was doing a frenzel all the time after all (sort of kind of). Mouthfill is a different story

[ivan]

hi

Im confused i didnt know reverse packing was used as an equalising technique. Im pretty sure i do the valvalsa as i have had no freedive training i just pinch my nose and blow air like most spearos do

Im sure the frenzel is much easier but it is very complicated to learn so i gotta go with what i got

cheers

[SanSan]

I didn't find it hard to learn frenzel, but learning the single mouthfill tehnicque is another story. I can alway compensate only once with one mouthfill because while doing frenzel air escapes back to my lungs.

What am I doing wrong? I know i should keep the epiglotis closed but I can't. Anybody knows some trainig to decouple the epiglotis and softpalate?

Thanks for the help.

[Tbird]

Sansan - I had this problem last year big time and got some very good advice from Eric Fattah (added a good 10m to my PB in 1 week). I have sent you a private message detailing what he told me....just a bit long to paste here.

[jome]

ivan, the difference is do you blow the air from your mouth or your lungs.

What I've come to realize is, that a lot of us actually "blow from the mouth". It's a bit hard to explain, but a lot of divers who say "I do the valsalva, I just pinch and blow", are actually doing the frenzel...They just don't know it

It's absolutely possible to learn the frenzel naturally. I used to have tons of ear infections as a kid, and learned this very young to relieve the pain and stickyness in my ears. But it took me 20 years to come to know that it's useful in diving and what it is called Back then I didn't even know ears could be compensated, I was just wondering why they hurt in diving...

[fpernett]

I think the mouthfill is the key. After you have some amount of air in the mouth you can use it, the best way you can. I use reverse packing to fill the mouth, but it lowers too much the pressure in the airway and that can be an issue for pulmonary edema. I think diaphragmatic mouthfill is more physiological.
I have made 47.5 meters with BTV and mouthfill. Once I had the mouth full, just "pressurize" the air a little bit, with the cheeks and equalize hands free using BTV technique

[octopus]

I have sent you a private message detailing what he told me....just a bit long to paste here.

Can you stick it as an attachement in , say, doc format?

[BennyB]

I think Wal was referring to reverse packing being a training tool to help with diaphragm flexibility. Out of water - exhale, reverse pack and then kind of push your diaphragm up higher. I think the theory is that you can then reduce your residual volume and have more to equalise with at depth.

[Tbird]

This is what Eric Fattah wrote to me after I asked his advice about how to stop the air from 'disappearing' from my mouth at the 60-65m range. His advice added 10m to my PB so I highly recommend it. I am very grateful to him and hope he doesn't mind (and am pretty sure he wouldn't mind) me publishing his private message in a public forum.

Using the vacuum was very helpful and I also did the mouthfill at 30m-35m instead of 25m.

quote

Diagnosis:

Possible explanations:

1. Are you 'losing' the air at 65m back into your lungs
OR
2. Have you simply used up the mouthfill air gradually by equalizing and by the pressure increase?

If #1 is the problem, use the vacuum technique. Once you fill your mouth, inhale against your closed epiglottis, creating a vacuum in the lungs. This is essential to remind yourself to keep the epiglottis closed.

If #2 is the problem, you need to do a better mouthfill. This could mean several things:
1. Change the depth at which you do the mouthfill (possibly)
2. Change your body position while filling the mouth
3. Change your head/neck position while filling the mouth

While filling the mouth, you should be hunch over at the waist, with you head cocked way back, jaw wide open with lips closed. If you have a mask, of course your cheeks can't bulge. With goggles your cheeks can bulge.

Other options:
- Filling the mouth while horizontal, or even FEET DOWN, will result in the ability to get a full mouthfill at a greater depth than otherwise. For example for me, the max depth I can get a full mouthfill inverted is 35m, but feet down I can get a full one around 45m+. This drastically increases my depth capacity.

To prevent losing the air back into your lungs I recommend pinching the nose forever once you have filled your mouth. As the air in your mouth shrinks, touch your chin to your chest to collapse the mouth cavity. Continue equalizing. As the mouthfill shrinks to nothingness, you will ultimately reach a point where you can pressurize your ears somewhat, but not enough to pop them. Gain one last equalization by moving your jaw simultaneously (BTV), to open your tubes WHILE doing the frenzel. Even if BTV doesn't normally work (like for me) this squeezes out one last equalization.

Also, practice mouthfill at the surface, close the throat, and see how deep you can go. You should be able to get 25m at least, probably 30m if you have a good fill. This is the best way to practice filling efficiency.

A proper mouthfill at 25m should get you to near 100m; a proper mouthfill at 35m could get you to 150m+.

Eric

unquote

[cdavis]

Jome,
I'm like you, when I needed to hold my nose, I thought I was using valsalva. Turned out to be frenzel. I had never done valsalva.

Ivan, easy way to tell which it is. Exhale then close your throat, inhale hard against your closed throat, grab your nose and clear. Watch your nose. If you can maintain the inhale and clear, you will see your nose inflate. That is frenzel, not valsalva. Either way you slice it, 39 meters is pretty good, congrats.

Connor

[ivan]

hi

Jome yeh i use air from my lung sto equalise, my mouth and throat dont do anything.


Thanks cdavis though im not to sure how to close the throat and stuff like that.

Im not really interested in the mouthfill and stuff like that I was just wondering how much further you guys can equalise to simply by using packing. For example have you guys tried a max dive just using valvalsa or frenzel no mouthfill and compared the difference in depth between packing and no packing

cheers