alcohol and training

[commonerg]

Originally Posted by spaghetti

However, i usually drink after diving

Mothers against drunk diving.

[adolphin]

fcallagy,

Certainly from a medical point of view I would agree its bad for you, it kills brain cells and is a depressant

Great ! .. that's what I was talking about

If your ever back this way give us a shout

Cool man, I'll make sure to shout out loud when I'm in the neighbor ..I would love to meet .. .. please do the same if ever you come to Dubai or Abu Dhabi .. !
I wish you a weekend full of sun, and wind-free ..

[adolphin]

Bill McIntyre,

Well frankly, your posts were not at all clear to me. They read like you might have had a bit too much to drink.

Well, I think my best chance is that you give up alcohol for couple of evenings, then read my comments, twice, that would probably work ..

Otherwise, if you would agree to stop it for 40 days, you would surely get to understand it from the first shot!

[adolphin]

commonerg,

I understand this, so I hope I could get some good references, since it should be scientific as I understood right from the beginning ..

I don't think you should take word of mouth, should you ?

The way I see it, any decision we make is carried out by weighting the known positives and negatives of alternatives to find the most beneficial choice in each case. How much weight each individual puts on the outcomes of drinking is not really of interest to me

From this I understand that if one person gets you 100 different individual scientific references about the subject, you would consider it as 100 in weight, while if 100 persons each of them get you the same piece of information from one only reference (all of them refer to the same source), then you consider it 1 in weight, does that sounds right ? coz it sounds very logical to me!

[adolphin]

spaghetti,

Thank you for the comment .. .. I have few points if you allow me.

If I was born in Yemen or in Pakistan, I would probably suscribe everything adolphin says.

This is not right in my opinion, first coz I'm not from Pakistan, nor do I come from Yemen, I come from United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi ..
Second, since you chosed to drink alcohol, then most probably that what you were going to do if you come originaly from any country of the world, because that is your choice as a person, we do have heavy drinkers here too, some who enjoys it to the last drop, and write poems about it, Arab countries knew wine for thousands of years and still do, maybe you don't know this, I think you should ..

But I'm an italian, and drinking wine is a very important feature of my culture. Our poets wrote poems about wine for thousands years, our artists painted people drinking wine, our religion has much to do with it.

What is your religion ? I thought it was Christianity ! .. if so, it's not different than mine.

You see, every town here makes its own peculiar wine, and each wine gets its name from the region or even from the small village where it's produced. Each of them is different, a result of centuries of experience, depending on terrain, techniques of production, taste of local typical food that must fit well with the local wine. Drinking it is not just drinking, it's a cultural heritage difficult to explain if you don't feel it deep inside yourself.

As I told you earlier, wine and other alcohol drinks are very well known here, our tradition if full of poems about them, and if you know Arabic language and how deep it is in expressing feelings, visions and imaginations you could imagine what I'm talking about ..
still, your words remind me of Dates and Date tree in our tradition as a heritage, it is so intinsive and very romantic, so I think I could imagine what you're talking about anyway, and you can imagine mine as well.

I'm sorry to say one thing, and hope you understand me please, whatever and however a certain matter is deep into a culture, if it is bad, then it should not be adopted or accepted by it's own people, there is a culture who kills endangered turtles in the most barberian ways, it's their heritage, some other cultures humiliate women, or look at other races with humiliating look, it's their culture and hertitage, still you would hate such a cultural view or act and you would want it's people to change and to take away what is bad and keep what is good with out the need to completely change they would always be what they are (only with no bad side).

However, i usually drink after diving

.. excuse me dear, but that's the whole point in this thread ..

With my

[trux]

As already told, drinking alcohol is cultural and social matter. I admit that countries where alcohol drinking is not usual or acceptable, people still may have a lot of fun without it. For many Czechs, going to a pub to chat with friends and drinking couple of beers is rather social necessity (and fun) than physical addiction (though there are certainly many who are indeed addicted).

Especially after training, having a beer with friends allows you to speak to them and to know them better than in the pool. Sure, we could drink tea, or alcohol-free beverages (and some indeed do), but the beer is part of our culture, and I do not think it will change any soon.

But why waiting with drinking after the diving? Just drink during it! Drinking a 0.5l bottle of beer (bottom-up) underwater in apnea was part of our diving club admission exams.

It is little known that besides many AIDA world records, Martin Stepanek (together with four other Czech divers) also created a record in drinking beer under water! Here is the press release:

Štafeta 5 x 1 pivo pod vodou

PĚTIČLENNÝ TÝM POTÁPĚČŮ ve složení Jaroslav Polák, Jiří Hurda, Jiří Bartoška, Petr Zlatuška a Martin Štěpánek vypila pod vodou štafetově pět lahvových piv v čase 2:18,31 min.

Rekordu bylo dosaženo 14. června 2003 v rámci 13. ročníku mezinárodního festivalu rekordů, kuriozit a piva Budvar v Pelhřimově.

Translation:

Team of five divers (Jaroslav Polak, Jiri Hurda, Jiri Bartoska, Petr Zlatuska and Martin Stepanek) drank 5 bottles of beer [each 0.5l] in an underwater relay in time of 2'18". They achieved the record on June 14, 2003 during the 13th International Budvar Festival of Records, Curiosities and Beer in Pelhrimov [Czech Rep].

Note: Budvar is the producer of Budweiser beer - I mean the real one, original Czech beer, not the disgusting stuff you drink in the USA Czech Budweiser is brewed in Budweis (Ceske Budejovice) [just like the real Pilsener (Pilsner Urquell) is brewed only in Pilsen (also Czech Rep.)] since couple of hundreds years and unlike the US fake drink, it is an excellent beer. (BTW, do you know what sexual intercourse in a canoe and (US) Bud have common? They are both f**ky close to water!)

[commonerg]

Originally Posted by adolphin

From this I understand that if one person gets you 100 different individual scientific references about the subject, you would consider it as 100 in weight, while if 100 persons each of them get you the same piece of information from one only reference (all of them refer to the same source), then you consider it 1 in weight, does that sounds right ? coz it sounds very logical to me!

I was refering to putting weight on the actual outcomes.For instance, we know there are some negative performance effects from drinking and we know there are some positive social effects (though they differ from individual to idividual) and perhaps some positive emotional effects. Even for two people for which alcohol affects in the exact same way- same outcomes and all, they might choose to consumer different amounts because they value performance and social interaction differently. I don't want to question why people put certain values on the outcomes of drinking I only want to know more about the outcomes so that the values I assign allow me to more thoroughly enjoy the things I want to enjoy.

To sum up, some people would rather dance, enjoy good food and drink, meet women, etc than do a 7:30 static. Others might choose the static. I would like to do both and I want to make descisions along the way which help me balance the two. The more I know, the more easily I am able to do that.

[Bill McIntyre]

Originally Posted by trux

Note: Budvar is the producer of Budweiser beer - I mean the real one, original Czech beer, not the disgusting stuff you drink in the USA Czech Budweiser is brewed in Budweis (Ceske Budejovice) [just like the real Pilsener (Pilsner Urquell) is brewed only in Pilsen (also Czech Rep.)] since couple of hundreds years and unlike the US fake drink, it is an excellent beer. (BTW, do you know what sexual intercourse in a canoe and (US) Bud have common? They are both f**ky close to water!)

I love that joke. I first used it heard it about 40 years ago only the beer in question was Coors light. However, it sure does apply to US Bud. I have had the pleasure of drinking the Czech Budweiser In Prague, and Pilsner Urquell both in the US and in Prague, and there is no comparison to most of the US beers. And while I'm at it, I would observe that the most beautiful women I've ever seen are in Prague. My wife had to keep a tight grip on my hand and a brace on my neck.

I don't think we are going to change adolphin's puritanical attitude no matter what we say, but maybe we should return to the original question posed- will alcohol consumption hurt performance? Drunk driving is to be deplored, and getting drunk every night and beating your wife and kids is not a good idea either, but that sort of thing is not in question, even if adolphin keeps trying to make that the focus.

Getting drunk and having a hangover certainly will hurt performance. But Mark Stepanek seems to do pretty well in freediving despite beer consumption, and Frank Shorter won the Olympic marathon despite beer consumption. I suppose its at least possible that they could do even better if they abstained, but its also possible that they would do worse because they had miserable lives with no social interaction. I'm not saying that social interaction is not possible without alcohol, but simply that for many people, a glass of beer or wine helps them relax.

My wife and I have taken three bicyling trips through Italy and five in France. After pedaling the hills all day carrying 40 pounds of luggage on my bike, I really enjoy the great food available in both countries, and I really enjoy the great local wines which vary so much in one day's bicycle distance. I just can't imagine eating that great food without the great wine. And during our four bicycle trips in Ireland, I can't imagine missing that great beer and stout at the end of a day's ride.

Yes, its a cultural thing, but I have adopted those cultures, and I've always been able to get on the bike and pedal the next day. I just don't think it makes a measurable difference in my performance.

[trux]

Not only Martin Stepanek drinks during diving, but also Herbert Nitch does! He was caught at it - look at the video. Additionally, it hapened in SETT - I think I should consider taking a SETT course with DeeperBlue too!

[Bill McIntyre]

I guess I should issue a disclaimer. I just noticed that this thread is in general freediving, and I suppose that means that its really about people who train to see how close they can come to death without going over the edge.

I'm just a freediving spearfisherman, and not even interested in competing at that activity. I don't want to stay down any longer than necessary to shoot and retrieve a fish. So I guess I shouldn't even be butting into this thread. If your goal is to push the limits, then I suppose anything that might subtract a second from your time matters. A few seconds really won't make much difference in how many fish I shoot, so I have an entirely different perspective. I'll try to stay out of it.

[trux]

Well, I forgot to add a smiley to my post, but I did not think anyone could misinterpret it. In no way I was trying to really promote drinking when freediving, or trying to suggest that top freediving competitors do so. The two examples I mentioned, were apparently only an extreme fun, and certainly none of the freedivers would do any serious diving after consuming alcohol or, vice versa consuming alcohol during real freediving.

I apologize for not adding this disclaimer - I know that humor does not travel well through forums, and should have done this before this. All what I wanted to tell with my posts, is that even some top freedivers do sometimes consume moderate amounts of alcohol. The question whether the negative physical effects are more serious than the positive psychological, social and even physical ones stays open. I respect those who decided to stay away 100% from alcohol for ever, but I'd be happy if they respect the decision of those who do sometimes consume some.

[naiad]

Originally Posted by Bill McIntyre

I just noticed that this thread is in general freediving, and I suppose that means that its really about people who train to see how close they can come to death without going over the edge.

I think freediving is about a lot more than that! I like to push the limits myself, but there are many who don't. I would go on a diving trip just to see the fish, and to enjoy the feeling of being underwater, without going anywhere near the limit. I would also like to know how long I can hold my breath, and how far or how deep I can go. I think there are many reasons for freediving, and pushing the limits is only one of them that not all of us do.

Lucia

[trux]

Originally Posted by Bill McIntyre

I'm just a freediving spearfisherman, and not even interested in competing at that activity. I don't want to stay down any longer than necessary to shoot and retrieve a fish.

BTW, Bill, freediving is not equal to competing or beating depth records as some may misinterpret. Freediving is the search for harmony with your body and spirit when holding your breath underwater. For most, the training does not serve the only purpose just to get deeper, as some peeople may think, but especially to feel well underwater for longer periods, and being able to explore the underwater world easier, better and with more pleasure and freedom.

I do not think that it is necessary to create any aparhteid or enemity between freedivers and spearos here on DB (and no, I do not suggest that you do - just some people may misintepret your comment again). Although some may not agree because the final purpose differs, freedivers and spereos are pretty much very alike, and there is a lot they can learn from each other.

[adolphin]

trux,

As already told, drinking alcohol is cultural and social matter ...

I was going to comment on that post that I already know this meaning, and I think that the meaning I wanted to deliver has already reached too, so I believe there is no point for either one to go on with examples and explainations since it would start to get into a loop ..
Then ! .. and before I post my answer I saw this:

... I apologize for not adding this disclaimer - I know that humor does not travel well through forums, and should have done this before this. All what I wanted to tell with my posts, is that even some top freedivers do sometimes consume moderate amounts of alcohol. The question whether the negative physical effects are more serious than the positive psychological, social and even physical ones stays open. I respect those who decided to stay away 100% from alcohol for ever, but I'd be happy if they respect the decision of those who do sometimes consume some.

so, I have no comment what so ever .. except a big

[adolphin]

Bill, my dear Bill,

I don't think we are going to change adolphin's puritanical attitude no matter what we say, but maybe we should return to the original question posed- will alcohol consumption hurt performance? Drunk driving is to be deplored, and getting drunk every night and beating your wife and kids is not a good idea either, but that sort of thing is not in question, even if adolphin keeps trying to make that the focus.

I'm not quite sure on which part of being puritanical are you claiming me to be, since I'm not Protestant .. .. because I believe some puritanical principals are good, while others are not .. so, was that a complimant from you or otherwise .. .. either way, this place is for freediving in particular, not freethinking in general, so I'll stop here ..
ooh yes, except that I'm not trying to make the kind of focus mentioned above, if that what my words meant to you, then I'm quite sure I lost you somewhere .. I apologize

I agree with trux with his thought! .. freedivers and speros doesn't differ a lot, well, actually a spearo is a freediver isn't he/she ?! ..