Cave diving

[cdavis]

I have recently joined the ranks of that slightly twisted group of freedivers who like to dive in fresh water springs down into caverns and caves. You know, diving into the bowels of the earth, down twisty passages where there is no light and you can't come straight up, just to see what's there. of course. Yeah, I know, its sounds nuts, but it really is fascinating. It is also much different from open water diving and comes with a unique set of new dangers. Which brings me to my question.

Has anybody thought about safety protocols for cave diving? Does anything already exist? Anybody like to start a discussion?

Connor

[trux]

Well, you can take some advices from speleo scuba divers - there are many of them here, so I am sure they'll peek in too.

Besides having a good buddy system, I'd advise using lights or flash lights for marking exits, using lines, and wearing light helmets would not be a bad idea either.

[maytag]

One thing to really worry about would be a silt-out -- especially with long fins in a an overhead environment with low clearance. This could make it very difficult to find your way out in (zero-vis situation) with the oxygen supply in your lungs (may not be able to wait until the silt settles down).

Oh - you want protocol - I would say, UNassisted freediving only. Still, based on my limited knowledge, I do not believe freedivers would have the same buoyancy control that technical scubies would have to safely minimize the probability of a silt-out.

There are also issues with flow/current. Some you have to swim against; some suck you in. THe latter would pose the greater risk, I think.

One other safety protocol might be to make all freedivers aware of the significant, additional risks of this type of diving. This sounds trivial, but I suggest it in the same spirit as those apnea sites who warn that the practices/activities described/discussed therein pose risks of injury and death.

One other thing might be to not try breathing from gas bubbles: this past summer, there was a near-fatal incident in which a teenager tried to breath from a bubble (left behind by ???) but it turned out not to be breathable gas...

If there truly are steps that freedivers can take to explore caves safely as well as to regulate such diving in such away as to discourage ill-prepared divers from attempting such dives, I would be for it. However, if there are not... I can't say I would endorse this, but I apologize, I know that is not what this thread is about. You might ask freedivers who dive wrecks. If they penetrate wrecks, they might have some techniques/tips they can share with you.

I aspire to dive caves... but on tanx... Sorry, I hope I didn't come across as a kill-joy.

Please keep safe and best cheers to you and everyone.

[Jee]

Hi, connected to the topic: http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthr...t=cave+extreme

May be you find some useful in it.

Jee

[cdavis]

Thanks all,

I hope some scuba types do chime in, I'd like to hear their ideas.

I've thought about multiple lights, a hassle, but doable. Its a no-brainer for tank divers doing long penetrations, but is it really useful for freedivers? I guess that depends on how far we are going into blackness.

Most of the stuff most spring freedivers are interested in in Florlda are boils and caverns which are, by definition, exposed to at least some sunlight. Most, (all for me) have significant flow, so siltation is not an issue. Where it gets tricky are places which grade from caverns(light) into caves (dark). For example, in Blue Springs, its an open boil to 65 ft, a cavern to 110ft with no light after about 95, but the way out can't be missed. After 110, it enters another room where the way out might not always be clear, consider that a cave. Personally, I'm pretty leary of penetrating caves, but have no problem going slowly and exploring a short distance beyond light penetration in caverns. In Blue, there is a sign at 65 warning untrained divers to stop. But if you stop there, you miss the best part, most of which is quite safe. So, what are reasonable guidelines on where is safe to dive and where not?

I totally agree that freedivers entering any overhead environment, caverns or whatever, need to be educated to the special, and not so obvious, dangers of this type of diving. Breathing off air bubbles is one of the not so obvious ones. We also almost lost a diver in Blue Springs this year from that issue. It is very easy to exceed your skill and safety level, much more so than in open water.

Connor

[island_sands]

Connor
Have you read this article?
http://www.deeperblue.net/article.php/742/28

[maytag]

Hi Conner and Jeff,

Sorry this is a bit late, but since you started this thread several weeks ago, I've been thinking about it a lot and now I am just really interested. If cave freediving is legitimate, perhaps I can use it as my long-term goal. Could you please share more about your cave experiences?

I was checking out the long list of cave/cavern sites here: Florida Cave, Cavern, and Sinkhole Diving. Which sites permit freediving? (the sites permitting open water level divers?)

I apologize this is a silly-sounding question, but do you know whether IANTD and/or NACD look favorably upon cave freediving?

How did you get into this? Apart from safety issues, can you identify special techniques that you use in caves - do you use different finning technique? Do you train differently to do this? Are you guys all self-taught?

Thanks much,
maytag

[cdavis]

Hi Maytag,

Lots of questions. Is it legit?, absolutely. But is very different. I'm a newbie to this kind of diving, basicly a go for broke spearo type who did some scuba cave diving a long time ago and decided I was the wrong kind of diver for caves. Freediving them is different from scuba, requires less anal concentration on detail, but still, to me, needs a much more careful approach than open water diving.

The site you refer to is the best I've found. There are several more. Jeff''s site is quite good, especially for freedivers. Sorry, I've lost the reference. Go way back through this thread and you can find it. Freediving a spring is a case by case thing. Lots of places have no rules at all.

I've contacted a few cave divers, but can't get much feedback(haven't tried real hard). The organizations have no position that I know of. I get the feeling that there has been so much trouble with scuba divers getting killed in Florida caves that they have gotten very rigid on this subject(understandable) and can't realy concieve of what freediving involves.

The techniques I use are pretty much like open water. Silt isn't an issue. If it was, I won't go there. A problem I've been having is hanging up my heels while falling through narrow passages, totally stops you momentum. Haven't quite figured out how to fix that one. One trick is turn your light off when you turn around in a passage that has gotten beyond the point where it is well lit. Turns out that the light from your torch can sometimes drown out the distant light of the cave entrance. It can be pretty disconcerting to turn around and see no light. That's a Jeff trick and also goes back to his main rule, inch by inch, and get extremely familiar with the cave your diving in. I agree that's the most important rule of all. Its also real easy for the over-eager or impatient(like me) to bend that rule to the point of trouble.

How'd I get into this oddball type of diving? Met Jeff through DB, then Scott and lots of others. A great group, who make the diving that much better.

Connor

[maytag]

Hey Connor,

Thanks so much for your posts!

Do you dive caves with fins (if so, bi-fins?)? In my mind, I was wondering if bifins would be difficult to maneuver around in if the restriction or passageway was a bit narrow...?

The light trick sounds like a great tip!

Other people have mentioned the possibility of carrying around a pony bottle "just in case" under other scenarios. I admit I have often wondered about this. If there were a class teaching freedivers how to use a pony bottle safely for "emergencies," I would be most game for it!

Where do you usually position your buddies when you're diving a cave?

Sorry for all the questions - please don't feel obliged to answer them. I am just very interested!!

Cheers to you, and safe, happy diving for 2007! Thanks,

Maytag

P.S. I did try clicking on Jeff's links, but I couldn't get it work for me, but my browser is a bit bug-gy.

[cdavis]

Hi Maytag,

I usually use my Cressi 2000s. Spring diving beats up your fins pretty bad, so the Hybrids and Waterways stay home. So far, maneuvering has not been difficult.

Pony bottles? Same problems as in open water, too much drag, plus it would get in the way in a tight passage. In my case, it would be impossible to resist the urge to go "just a little bit deeper" with a pony, get me in trouble for sure.

Buddy diving is difficult. You can almost never see your buddy once he is very far under the surface and where we dive the tree limbs don't allow you to meet him at 30 ft or so on the way up. What I usually do is stay on the surface and watch the time. I know about how long my buddy will be down and then watch him carefully for several breaths after surfacing. Its not as good as it should be, but we don't push things, so nobody should be surfacing near his limits.

What part of the world are you from?

Connor

[maytag]

Originally Posted by jeff.richardson

Those of us who freedive these places regularly are very concerned about getting locked out completely, so we try to bring as little attention to what we are doing as possible. When people ask what kind of diving I am doing, I always say "I'm just snorkeling".

Hi Jeff - Will do. It will be a while before I am up to your and Connor's levels and can dive a cave, but it is good to know that there is such a thing as freediving a cave to motivate me in the interim!

Hi Connor - I'm currently based in Chicago... Points about buddies and ponies well taken - thanks for sharing your expertise! This is all very intriguing - now I have something to think about while practicing those tables. BTW - I found this last night - have you seen it? It is kind of a cute story.
Divernet | Know How | As hard as nails (check out the pic of "Amphibian Man")

Thanks guys!!

[Mafnet]

I go cave diving at ginnie springs about twice a year. and as far as safty goes...not much to be seen. i will eventually will have the story typed up in the free diving story section of when i passed out in an over head dive and my fellow diver had to pull me out. scary stuff

an obvous but often forgotten idea "don't get lost"

[cdavis]

I would very much like to get a detailed description.

Connor

[cdavis]

Seeing this thread resurface, I thought an update might be in order.

We have been slowly expanding our cave and cavern diving, learning as we go. My thanks to Sanso and others who helped us with dark water line diving, the strobe was a great suggestion. The best and most fundamental rule for caving (besides dive with a buddy) is to go very slowly into the dark, only a few feet farther each dive and looking behind to memorize what the path out looks like. It's amazing how different it can look from the opposite direction. We are developing some other guidelines on what's dangerous that doesn't look that way.

Today, we initiated DB's Amphibious (a real pleasure to dive with), lost my keys(another story), and dove Eagles Nest, a spot renowned among scuba cave divers as a fabulous and very dangerous place. Having been there, I'd agree with all of that, and we were there with some of the best possible conditions. Eagles is safe to line dive down to 130 ft, but anything else(and there is a lot!) is going to require some gear changes for us. A place to be very very careful. We will be back.

Anybody else out there doing anything like this and/or care to comment of safety issues?

Connor

[fflupo]

my experience in sea-cave diving,at first it is very very dangerous...

just to point out some details: the condition are vary a lot and depend on the vis in the water a lot,( swell, current,..)
some days it is easy to see the exit point some days not at all,
it is always a different vis from the inside to outside view, will say you are out and think nice vis and than you go inside and see f*ck all not just because all the particles at the bottom you moved with the fins.
the torch is important and i find it easier in general to see exit points without the artificial light if you give your eyes enough time to get used to the dark and stay relaxed.
i think it is helpful if one capable dive buddy stays outside as an emergency and acts after a certain time following a line, or the dive plan.. or can see a light (f.e. light stick) attached to the diver.
buoyancy is although something to think about you don t wonna float in the cave and get stuck on a rock or something i do my buoyancy with the amount of air in the lungs and with less weight as possible..
make sure you train the safety procedures because sooner or later the shit will hit you ..
never loose respect it will be a killer..
sis felix
wolf