New STA record attempt pending

[CEngelbrecht]

Can someone relay that to Stéphane? Pour la diplomacie...

[OceanMan]

Trux, there is no Salon de la Plongée in Paris this week end. Actually The Salon de la Plongée was held in January 2007. What you read on Mifsud's website is an hold piece of news from 2-3 years ago.
Mifsud will attempt a french aida record (not a world record) the 12th of July and it will not be aired live.
According to what I heard, Mifsud is pissed off by aida international because of is 8'24" static record which was set the same day as the aida surface protocole was introduced. Nobody knew about the new protocole. Judges did not know about the new protocole and gave a white card. The record was concelled a few weeks after that. Mifsud is still in good term with aida france though.

[Jorg]

Originally Posted by OceanMan

According to what I heard, Mifsud is pissed off by aida international because of is 8'24" static record which was set the same day as the aida surface protocole was introduced. Nobody knew about the new protocole. Judges did not know about the new protocole and gave a white card. The record was concelled a few weeks after that. Mifsud is still in good term with aida france though.

The surface protocol he had to day was already in place for a long time. The judge on site just made a mistake... I still have the video of this performance and you see Stephane after his amazing performance just standing there... no okay sign nothing. And that's already in place for a very long time.

[sebastien murat]

I'll be blunt. You have 2 chances for IOC inclusion: none and bugger all!

Finswimming tried but the answer was simple: there are already too many sports and, if it would even be considered, it would have to be a popular world sport.

Calling yourself world champion, the greatest, the best or raising the #1 finger up in the air are hardly commendable qualities where I come from. Unfortunately, AIDA has developed and promoted just such a culture. One's actions should speak for themselves. Why is that important? Simply because you are fostering are culture of losers...there can only be one winner.

I for one hope that it never be considered for IOC inclusion. There seem to be a lot of people wanting to police this thing we call freediving. If you police it, you will kill the very thing that may have attracted you to it in the first instance. Sadly, some feel that by containing it with some arbitrary and abstract concepts it organizes their world into a more meaningful existence, but that's simply a delusion. I'm all for variety and opening up the borders in a more lateral direction.

S

[trux]

Originally Posted by wolleneugebauer

@Trux:: Is it fair to support this attempt (without AIDA-Judgement)?

Personally I do not see anything wrong in supporting any freediving performances, regardless if they are sanctioned by AIDA or not, and I keep my highest respect for the freedivers who achieve any nice result, regardless if it was under AIDA supervision or not.

What I have no respect for, at all, though, is the impertinence to immediately claim such attempt to be a World Record (same at Mifsud as at Musimu). As long as conditions required for a WR are not kept, it simply is no world record, but in the best case just the "longest breath-hold (or breath-hold swim) ever achieved". Claiming immediately after surfacing the WR is indeed a great disrespect for others, who had to respect and endure the often limiting conditions of a WR. See below what I mean: after his 213m DNF swim (French NR), Mifsud immediately waved in front of TV cameras a 1x1m banner with words Stéphane Mifsud - World Record 213m, although he very well knew that the attempt cannot be and will not be sanctioned as such.

misfud213m.jpg

So again, I have a great respect for the performance, but do not consider it World Record, because it was not done in conditions previous records were done under. And although I respect Mifsud for his performances, I disrespect him for this provocative attitude, and also for his public denigration of other freedivers - for example he continues to claim that he does not respect any performances achieved by Tom Sietas, because he considers him a doping cheater, although it is completely baseless. Seeing Mifsud's discussions on French forums, I know Mifsud is a nice guy, but unfortunately with a sick ego, not able to accept not being the best.

[H.Balázs]

Trux,

213m DYF not DNF, just only to be accurate...

Balázs

[trux]

Originally Posted by H.Balázs

Trux,

213m DYF not DNF, just only to be accurate...

Balázs

Yes, of course you are right, it was with fins - it was just a short circuit when I typed it. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Haydn]

ITS THE RULES THAT CAUSE THE PROBLEM. If at such a prestige international event, Stephane exceeds the time that Aida claim to be a world record (and we will all see it happen, including many Aida International judges that wont be wearing their official hats). Then clearly it becomes the new world record. The problem is Aida have listed dozens of extra hoops that Aida insist their athletes have to go through as well as simply holding their breath the longest.

Of course we dont expect Staphane to claim a world record if he is on drugs, breathes 02 beforehand or has an lmc afterwards but why do we expect him to conform to dozens of red tape Aida rules if he is not a member of Aida.

Stephane is simply a person who will smash the longest time that an Aida athlete has recorded as the existing Aida world record. That makes him the new world record holder in my book. And if he flicks the Vs or makes a different OK type two fingered gesture at the judges to show he is OK, it should make no difference to the fact.

I expect Stephane will comply with all the rules that Aida insist upon anyway. Except he did not invite them to officiate because its a different organisations event. If Aida wish to claim that they alone have world record responsibility to validate records, then they should attend. Of course Aida wont attend (officially)because the rules allow them to choose not to (not being invited, not being paid type exuses come to mind).

What I am saying is that Aida have say 2000 members and one out of 2000 is the deepest, longest, furthest and Aida call that athlete a world record holder. They ignore the billions of other non Aida members, one of which becomes deeper, further, longer etc. And I am not talking about an unknown individual here, but a recognised world class athlete.

What has happened here is that Stephane and perhaps Umberto, Pipin, Patrick etc are in different camps , but regardless of that, if they beat our athletes performances than we should relinquish our claim on an Aida world record holder and hand it over as being held by a CMAS or other organisations athlete.

Bringing different organisations together is absolutely the answer and it seems its happening anyway in this case. That is real progress and looks great for including the Russians, Chinese, Italians etc into the mix. Agreeing a fixed set of rules should be childs play and then we will have true and worthy recognition for whoever becomes the real world record holder. It is not the answer to ignore the performance of non Aida members and pretend our athletes are the real champions.

I am playing devils advocate here to some degree and in fact would ignore claims by stunt teams and wacky unknowns. But I cannot ignore bone fide athlethes performances during recognised international competition events. The challenge is for Aida to become as worthy on a world stage as the athletes they represent.

[trux]

Haydn, what dozens of red tapes exactly are you speaking of? AFAIK, there is not so many of them at STA: principally it is the surface protocol and a doping control. It is Stephan's choice not to supervise the record by AIDA since he is pissed off with them because of previous disqualification cases. I do not see why AIDA should recognize any record it did not judge. AIDA is certainly not the only organism that has the right to ratify world records, but it is the only organism that can ratify AIDA world records. AFAIK, FFESSM can only sanction national records. He may indeed do a better performance than the current WR, but so did already many other freedivers - as long as the attempt is not official, it is simply no official record - same for Stephan as for Tom or others. And same as for thousands of other athletes in any other sport discipline.

[wolleneugebauer]

...a record without an official doping test is`n`t a record!
I will know that the urinary from the champion is in the safe from a trustable organisation.
"Trust is good, control is better"
my 2 cents only.

[Haydn]

I agree with you Trux to the extent that records in training with a buddy or a bunch of onlookers cannot be ratified. But its different when the record is performed in an international competition with other freedivers and their affiliated organisations taking part. Records are set to fall at such events and we aught to recognise the results even if they beat our own Aida athletes. I do expect a dope test to be mandatory though as far as world records are concerned, and Stephane may not be able to afford one.

The red tapes I disagree with are mainly those that have no bearing on the performance, eg having two international Aida judges present rather than two suitably qualified other judges. Having to perform Aida surface protocols rather than the protocols which their own organisation has chosen. (why cant Aida accept different protocols, as long as Aida agree the standard). Just because Stephane is cheesed off with Aida, should not be a barrier to Aida. Aida should respect Stephane and even ask to be invited and go there without Stephane paying a fee. Qualified Aida officials will no doubt be there anyway and if Stephane is successful and otherwise would be ratified, why should he not be ratified just because he didnt ask Aida to be there?

What if Aida does attend without Stephanes invitation. Stephane suceeds and Aida ratifies the record. Do you think Stephane would then ask Aida not to add his name to the Aida list of World Records? Surely, Aida attending and making a fair judgement based on Stephanes performance could be ratified. Judge the performance rather than the letter of the law.

Who really cares if the athlete didnt give Aida sufficient notice, or do a training dive near enough to the existing record. Who cares if the athlete didnt do Aidas surface protocol but did a different equivalent protocol instead. What matters is his performance, so lets get down and judge the performance, then either ratify it or not.

[cebaztian]

At the end of the day it is not that hard to come by "medicals" that makes a world record quite easy. I think even I could hold my breath for 10 minutes if I had betablockers and some epo in my blood.

Dopingtest -yes please.

Sebastian

[shoutatthesky]

An AIDA WR is exactly that - an AIDA record - not a Guiness record, a CMAS record, or a F.R.E.E record.
I do agree that AIDA should work with other agencies but the rules should be the same for everybody. If Stephane wants to use a different okay signal than AIDA requires then that is his choice. He obviously does not care so much about their opinion anyway.
I think the core of this issue is not the doping tests or the surveilance before the performance. This is about the athlete showing they are in control of their functions during and after completion of their performance. To do this everyone needs to know beforehand what is expected of the athlete upon surfacing. Stephane clearly has his own ideas in regards to this.

[efattah]

Some key points:
- Mifsud became angry after the 8'24" static, because the judges gave him the white card, and told him that he should take the doping test. So he paid 500 Euro for the doping test. Later AIDA says he passed the test but the record doesn't count because of errors on the part of the judges. So, Mifsud said that since it was AIDA's error to give him the white card, he wants AIDA to refund the 500 Euro doping test. AIDA said no. AIDA is not supposed to make an athlete take the doping test unless everything else in the performance is clean. So that's how it started.

- Everyone is saying that unless AIDA is there and the athlete does a doping test, the record is 'worthless.' But, the best performance enhancer for freediving is EPO, and AIDA's IOC doping test cannot detect EPO. The athlete will stop taking it before the record, making it undetectable. The only way to detect it is to do doping tests during training, which AIDA does not do. So even if AIDA is there and does a doping test, it says nothing about whether or not the athlete is cheating. In fact, I have heard rumours from several sources that several recent AIDA world records (in the last 2 years) have been done under the influence of EPO. I can't divulge the names of the athletes since there is no firm evidence. But the possibility is there, and the current anti-doping method is far from accurate.

[Walrus]

In the case of someone with a large packing volume I wouldn't have thought EPO will give that huge a boost. The larger the packing volume the less your red blood cell count will matter. In the case of static surely Beta Blockers would be the no1 performance enhancer ?

The only drug rumours I have heard before seem to come more from rival atheletes and their friends, I wouldn't exactly give them any credit. We had the same thing in Australia every time one of our swimmers did really well there would be drug rumours, the athletes themselves were tested constantly.

Wal