83 Cnf - New Wr

[Walrus]

This may seem like a silly question but is this footage from the actual WR dive itself ?
It's pretty standard to edit extra bit's and pieces in for a promo video, so is the bottom footage actually the same as the official footage ?

For a record attempt a lanyard is not required if you have a safety diver near the bottom plate.

Cheers,
Wal

[Billextreme]

Hi all,

Sorry for all trouble, but this is not easy.

You find everything about this in the rules, incl the appendix. For Record Attempts in CNF you have to look under the specific discipline in the rules for competition. This will be section 3. (lanyard is under section 2)

The judge education is very strict and good... and all my students know the rules, and how to use them. Remember that even judge can have a bad day and do mistake.

In this case I must say that Martin is the one surprising me most.

William have ALL rights to take this to the AIDA DC.

If you do an attempt without lanyard you need at least one safety diver UNDER the plate.

/B

ps.
When it comes to Mifsud and his static I have no info. I was not, in any way, involved in that decision. I do remember that the two judges from that attempt where heavy penalized.

[Jorg]

In the time of the mifsud performance the rules where not like it is today. In those days two judges looked at the performance and judged it, AND after that the video of the performance was send to AIDA and then Dieter Bauman who was responsible for records who have a look at the attempt a be the main judge to say if everything was okay. So then you had the stupid part that the judges on site were pretty useless.

Nowadays it's much more clear. Judges on site determine if it's a world record yes or not, and if they make a mistake in judging it's completely their own fault. At least the record will not be disqualified two months later by someone who wasn't even there, which was even more stupid then making a mistake like with Martin's record.

[nimus27]

Hi All,

I think the "tag" thing should continue, it as been like that for years and i think it as a special meaning to bring something from depth, don't you think?

Better systems have been developed to grab the tag, like the velcro system, in a pursuit for innovation and it shoudn't be now, for a question of easyness, that the tag should disappear.

Points to consider:

1) i think the rules were mixed up,: in one place bring the tag (competions), in another no need for tag (records). That should be clearify as soon as possible.

2) if the judges present clearily knew the rules, then at least one tag should be present at depth (competions/records). So if there wasn't no tag, the performance shouldn't be valid, even if the freediver did the depth. It wasn't an error, it was premiditated!

3) AIDA website should be updated consistently: or with a rectified decision (after a protest, i don't know) or with Martin Stepanek record on frontpage.

Best regards,

PS: last week there was also a record day in Azores-Portugal in CNF, i am not shure if the freediver bring the tag, what should be the answer? did the judge forget about a rule and the record is valid or the judge would be more careful and put a tag down there?

João Costa
Freediving Moments

[pehtran]

I completly support Wills point of view.
Miha

[Will]

It is really unfortunate that this matter has robbed attention from both the fact of Martin's impressive performance, as well as more recent events such as the Auckland competition where Dave Mullins and Ant Williams both did dynamics that would have won medals (not to mention WRs) at the world champs.
However this is something that needs to be adressed, as the endorsement of a double standard destroys the integrity of the AIDA governing body and any dives that you as a freediver have done or intend to do under it.

To demonstrate:
What happens if, in the future, a CNF diver attempts a depth of 84m, takes the tag from the bottom plate and attaches it to their person, only to have it fall off close to the surface on the ascent. With what courage could AIDA possibly withhold the world record from this athlete, when for Stepanek's dive there were no tags involved from the start to the finish? The answer is they CANNOT. The athlete would have every right, legal as well as moral, to declare themselves the AIDA world record holder to the media and all and sunder. Whatsmore, judging by current reaction, almost the entire freediving community would unite in considering him the AIDA world record holder. The only place where the athlete would not be the record holder is on one page of the AIDA website...
Is AIDA brave enough to submit to this kind of negative opinion for the sole purpose of attempting to rectify the mistakes made by their official judges?

Originally Posted by Billextreme

The judge education is very strict and good... and all my students know the rules, and how to use them. Remember that even judge can have a bad day and do mistake.

This is not a case of a judge having a bad day or making a mistake. It is a case of no less than 3 AIDA judges being ignorant of the AIDA rules. How then, can judge education be described as "very strict and good"?
Furthermore, on the 8th or 9th of August the 2 on-site judges both signed a declaration which explicitly stated that they had witnessed Martin hand them the tag that they had signed prior to attaching it to the bottom plate!! That is not a mistake, but a case of not reading what you are signing!

In April and October of 2006, before my CNF WR attempts I debated with AIDA judges the relevance of tags in a discipline where the means of propulsion are the hands. I was told that tags are a necessary and important part of record validation. However if an athlete can set a world record without bringing a tag to the surface then it logically follows that the tag is dispensable. If the tag is dispensible then how can AIDA justify its requirement in future attempts?
I personally believe they cannot and should not, and that any attempt to do so will create severe polemics that will further sully AIDA's reputation.
It was for Martin's benefit (so that he could re-attempt the dive) that I alerted AIDA of the missing tag when I saw the video. It is now for the benefit of AIDA's reputation that I am trying to hold them to a consistency of judgement. The protest I have sent in suggests two courses of action, and is included below:

I, the undersigned, wish to protest the decision made by the AIDA board on August 13, 2007 to validate the world record attempted by Martin Stepanek in the discipline of CNF on the 8th of August.
I request that AIDA take one of the following course of actions (a) and (b):
a) Martin Stepanek's performance be disqualified due to the error made by himself and 2 other on-site AIDA judges to not use a tag in the record attempt, bearing in mind that this is an error which does impact directly on the validity of Stepanek's performance by imparting clear and significant advantages to the same, in particular:

i) eliminating mechanical actions associated with finding and removing the tag from the bottom plate and attaching the tag to the person
ii) eliminating any psychological stress associated with retrieving the tag and performing these mechanical actions at depth
iii) enabling the athlete to pull on the ascent line with both hands, thereby expediting the ascent
iv) shortening the dive time by means of (i) and (iii)

b) use this attempt as a precedent to retract the rule relating to the necessity of a tag for WR attempts, and to validate this performance and all future attempts in CNF by use of video footage of the athlete touching the bottom plate at the target depth as well as depth registered by the official depth gauge worn on the athlete's wrist.

I am personally hoping that they will choose option(b). That way Martin's performance is valid and I have the opportunity to attempt it under the same conditions as he did.
Should anyone want to put their voice to this protest you can cut and paste (as well as edit and supplement as you see fit) the above text in an e-mail to Discipline_AIDA@yahoogroups.com
Now back to training,
William Trubridge.

[samdive]

It's also really sad that senior AIDA people still feel the need to post on here under made up names

whoever heard of "Robby"? a freediver in the UK who can't speak English?

Grow up and give your name if you want to say something... we know who you are anyway

Sam

[fcallagy]

Seems like a very fair protest and for all the right reasons Willl. The only problem I can see with it is if option B is used, will it stop smaller competitions that could not afford to have a video on the plate or will it be a new rule for wr attempts only and the original rule for competitons.

[nimus27]

Well,

If this is a fact:

Originally Posted by Will

Furthermore, on the 8th or 9th of August the 2 on-site judges both signed a declaration which explicitly stated that they had witnessed Martin hand them the tag that they had signed prior to attaching it to the bottom plate!

Then something is very wrong in the record video! nobody saw Stepanek grab any tag.

Or else, the judges though that there wasn't need for a tag.

My conclusion:

The judges and Martin Stepanek himself though that there wasn't a need for a tag, as described in record regulations. That's what i would thought too.

But, the AIDA judges should have been already informed that a tag was necessary, since your episode:

Originally Posted by Will

In April and October of 2006, before my CNF WR attempts I debated with AIDA judges the relevance of tags in a discipline where the means of propulsion are the hands. I was told that tags are a necessary and important part of record validation.

So i think AIDA is responsible for this mess and Stepanek should at least have a refund if the record is rejected, or have another try without expenses, but with the tag, as everyone else.

PS: In my opinion the tag should not be removed, because it is a symbol of acheivement.

[Billextreme]

William,

The AIDA DC don't work like that. They got your protest and the way they work will not change in ANY part if there is 1 or 1000 protests about the same case. Soo please don't send in any more mails to the AIDA DC. (it could actually have the opposite effect)

The AIDA DC can't change any regulations, but they will, for sure, take a close look at your case.

/B

[sheepeck]

Heeeey Bill.
What does it mean?

....the way they work will not change in ANY part if there is 1 or 1000 protests

and

....it could actually have the opposite effect


Doesn't this seem contrary?

Petr

[samdive]

....the way they work will not change in ANY part if there is 1 or 1000 protests

bit undemocratic isn't it?

[drea]

gee, this is so c**p. i must agree with will. i mean when i first heard about this mess, i was saying that if i was martin and the judges disqualify me for a mistake that is solely their own, i would be really pissed off. THEN i found out that martin is a judge too. so he should know all this and not make a mistake, right?
will has made an extremely valid point in his mail to the aida dc. fair does need to be fair at the end of the day.

ps. would be funky to know what martin himself has to say about this. does he ever post here?
pps. remember everyone, the aida people are all volunteers with day jobs and they are doing all this on their free time for no cash. maybe its somewhat acceptable that they make mistakes even if its crap when it happens.
ppps. sam, you always point out the fact that ppl sign in under fake names. well out them if it urks you so much. goss is always fun right???

[samdive]

Goss is fun but I'm not quite ready to blow AIDA's reputation quite yet - the person involved knows who they are and can put this right themselves by stopping the game playing!

[turtle]

It seems as if this game is getting too complicated for it's own good! This is partly why freediving isn't getting the media coverage many people feel it should - how do you succesfully portray the attraction of a sport where any number of technical points in a performance will result in disqualification??

Freediving performance/records measure a few really simple things - a particular means of propulsion... and a distance... How hard can it be to come up with some really, really basic rules regarding the dos and the do-nots of an individual under these circumstances??

For example - you have a two metre stretch of brightly coloured line at either end of the dive line. These you can touch as much as you want on ascent/descent. Anywhere else - dq. You have a bottom plate with a big push button or similiar on the bottom which the athlete whacks when they reach it & everyone on the surface cheers... Surface protocol - you have to come to the surface & breathe again without blacking out/freaking anyone out.

For what it's worth - I think will is doing the right thing here, but the problem is not down to the individual (martin/ute/bill etc.) but down to a system of rules and protocols that have basically proved themselves to be subjective, unattractive to the public eye, open to controversy. The picture of freediving records needs to be made far simpler, not increasingly detailed. I'm sure AIDA are the best people to effect such a change.

The attraction of freediving is the fact that it is a very basic, elemental act. The rules for people who want to play by them should reflect - not supress - this.

Said enough, lots more people probably have better thoughts. Amazing how much of forum space on deeperblue is given over to talking about aida...

f