83 Cnf - New Wr

[hteas]

Will,
I find your sportsmanship to be of the absolutely highest quality. There are so few who can stand on reason rather than fall on emotions when such a big event is playing out. My hat is off to you.
Howard

[Deep_blue]

Hello, if you´ve read the rules you will see tha its not necessery to bring the tag in CNF, Martin only touch the bottom. Don´t get concern about it. Enjoy the dive. Thats what matter.

[trux]

Originally Posted by Deep_blue

Hello, if you´ve read the rules you will see Thai its not necessery to bring the tag in CNF, Martin only touch the bottom. Don´t get concern about it. Enjoy the dive. Thats what matter.

Hmm, the president of AIDA does not think so, as you can see in his post. Are you above him?

Though, I still do not agree with him that the education of AIDA judges is without any problems. If three of three international judges do not know the rules, there is definitely something very rotten in AIDA and it requires a radical change. I simply do not believe that all the three judges were aware of the right rules, but decided to ignore them just to get Martin a better chance - that's ridiculous (and nobody here suggested it). So it definitely means the education and examination of the international judges is very wrong and the rules very contradicting and chaotic.

[Billextreme]

I guess what I try to say is that SPAM will make there work harder and more time consuming.

/B

[glennv]

I am definately with Will and his very professional approach to this whole deal.
Yes Martin did a great dive, but he definately had an advantage by not using the tag, all be it little but so is the difference between the new world record and the old one. With the way AIDA ruling works the size of the advantage does not even matter (look at the stupid pulling rule with dynamics or the touching the bottom rule).
So lets hope the DC looks seriously to this protest and choose a clear path either to approve the record with the attached consequences for all future CNF dives or to disapprove the dive.

What do you mean Bill with the DC can not change any rule. Why then do you suggest sending a protest to this commity ??

How do we get a rule changed then if the comity is not able to do this (so where do we send mails to get rules changed) and what is there added value ?
Would be a strange situation then if they approve the dive then and (since they can not chage the rule) go against the current rules.

[Billextreme]

Dear Glenn,

AIDA Disciplinary Commission can change decisions, but not our rules.

The AIDA Disciplinary Commission is where all the work is done when it comes to questions about unfair practice inside of AIDA. This includes doping questions, cheating and any behaviour that contradicts the AIDA regulations.

The AIDA Technical Commission is where all the work is done when it comes to rules, regulations and safety. The mail address is:THIS

have a nice day
/B

[shoutatthesky]

So to sum it up - the record needs to be ruled invalid to avoid discrediting AIDA and all future record attempts under the AIDA organisation.
There was clearly an error on the part of the judges and the athlete. The record was not completed under the correct rules. To avoid further errors of this magnitude AIDA need to be strong and stand by the RULES because by doing so they send a message that every athlete competes from a level playing field.

[sheepeck]

I want to apologize.
Sentence I placed on my post No37 of this thread was taken from "Regulations for international freediving competitions" and not from "Regulation for the recognition of records".
So the previous post No36 is correct.

And so here can the whole story end, because that document have it clearly said.
Martin was right and didn't make any mistake (in case that document is not outadated).

Originally Posted by juka

http://www.hotweb.se/aspportal1/scripts/v5.3a-eng.pdf

6.3.2 Signal arrangement:
6.3.2.1 For constant weight, constant weight without fins and free immersion, one or several signals will be
placed at the anticipated depth of the record attempt bearing a number corresponding to the depth in
meters and signed by the International AIDA Judges on the day of the attempt.
The following submissions will be used to witness the performance:
· the freediver bringing up a marker ("depth tag") previously signed by the 2 International Judges.
AND
· a video recording on a new videocassette of the capture of the marker by a camera secured at the
anticipated depth, signed by the 2 International Judges prior to its immersion.
However, in free immersion and in constant weight without fins, it is permissible to touch only the end
plate by hand without taking the marker.

[TheDude]

This is getting very ridiculous... In the document posted by Juka it is clearly stated that you don't need to use a tag. Now Bill states that you have to...

[Billextreme]

Ok, again....

The Regulation-Appendix-2007, the one you can download at AIDA website over-rule record regulation v5.3a. For the specific discipline(CNF-CWT) you have to look under section 3 in the competition rules v11.2.

have a nice day
/B

[CEngelbrecht]

This situation is a damn mess, because in order to correctly organize a record attempt right now, you actually have to refer to three different AIDA documents (!).
* The records regulations 5.3a, dating back from 2003
* The competition regulations 11.2 from 2006
* The appendices from June '07, stating that the competition regulations over-rules the record rules from '03 on many details, eg. the safety lanyard, the tag, etc. The reason this was written was that quite many details differ from competitions to records on paper, but the AIDA board wishes the changes in competitions (lanyard, etc.) to be included in records as well. AIDA just haven't had the time and manhours to update the records document yet, so the appendices was written to save time and have records keep happening in the meantime.

In Dahab, not even the onsite judges could figure out how to interpret this confusion. And so they made the wrong decision, allowing Martin to dive without either lanyard or tag. But much of it is also AIDA's own fault, our documents is just too big a mess right now.

And BTW, to hell with AIDA losing face. What's more important is protecting the performance of the athlete. Martin did the dive with the permit from the onsite judges. It's our own fault, but again we lack the manpower to update the paperwork.

Anyway, that's just my personal opinion.

[littlefreediver]

Has anyone thought of charging an AIDA fee to all members/divers (on top of national membership) so that we can employ someone to look at all this stuff and manage it efficiently on an ongoing basis? Freediving is growing, the media is starting to sit up and pay attention and we need to be more professional. This doesn't detract from all the fabulous work everyone does on a volunteer basis, but perhaps we need to face facts and move with the times... Just a thought...

[samdive]

I proposed loads of times whilst I was on the Board that at least certain people in AIDA should be paid for their job (particularly the education arm which does raise a lot of money that at present, I have no idea how AIDA spends it) but any such suggestion was always shouted down very quickly.... I guess if they were paid, they'd have to be a bit more accountable!

[William W]

And BTW, to hell with AIDA losing face. What's more important is protecting the performance of the athlete. Martin did the dive with the permit from the onsite judges.

Hi Chris,

I agree with your point but would like to clarify something: When you mention protecting the performance of the athlete, which athlete are you referring to - Martin, William Trubridge or the next person to attempt the record or the person attempting a PB in a competition? All of these people need to be considered in this decision and so far the only person being considered is Martin.

I personally agree that Martin should have the record but not if the rest of us must continue to follow a different set of rules. There is a big difference in a performance with a tag versus one without...trust me I have been training both ways and without the tag I have a much faster dive profile and a much easier dive. Not only is there the time delay on the bottom while you find, grab and secure the tag on your person but, there is the psychology of wondering if it will still be there when you surface. The fact is that Martins dive was not the same as William Trubridges dive because he was allowed to do this without a tag. Fine, give Martin the record but change the rules so that William can attempt to reclaim the record following the same rules that Martin set the record with. I am planning to also attempt this record, in competition later this year, how is it fair for me to have to follow a different set of rules than Martin? The justification cannot be that AIDA screwed up...sorry that just does not cut it.

In my opinion AIDA has two choices:

1 - Ratify Martins record and change the rules to create a level playing field for everyone in the sport.

Or

2 - Do not ratify Martins record and pay for him to have a second attempt at the record.

Since AIDA chooses the judges for every WR Attempt and the athletes do not get to choose a judge except to request proximity to the location of the attempt when possible, then AIDA has by default become fully responsible for any and all problems that relate to judge error. In no way should the previous record holder or the next person attempting the record be punished for the mistake of AIDA or its judges and that is exactly what happens with the current decision by the AIDA Board in Ratifying this record without changing the rules. William or myself in attempting Martins record must follow more difficult rules to achieve a performance that would be greater in depth than Martins...this is simply unacceptable! This also means that anyone competing in this discipline, regardless of the depth, is competing under a stricter standard than the ones used to set the current World Record...again unacceptable!

It is time that AIDA starts looking at the interests of ALL of the athletes in this sport and not just the one in the individual performance in question.

I respect Martin's dive and I hope that he will be given the record but only if AIDA changes the rules for everyone and not one individual.

Best regards,

William W...not Trubridge :-)

[littlefreediver]

Hey Will (W)

Great to see you entering the debate. I was wondering when you were going to join in as you're crucial to this whole discussion, and are never one to pipe down when it gets a bit hairy! Let's hope AIDA hears our voices and comes to a decision on this quickly, one way or another (ie the EITHER / OR option, but not BOTH).

Hugs to you, mate!
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