[News] Freediver encouraged to experience blackout in training

[NewsBot]

The Miami Herald reports of an interview with a freediving student, Jim Mascara, of Spearfishing Store in Naples (Florida). Mr. Mascara comments how he was encouraged to hold his breath during training with the FIT freediving training agency until reachin...

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[jome]

Hmm, my first reaction was "what the hell?!?"

But upon reading the original article, I'm just curious.

Was he told by to instructor to push until BO as an instructing tool(as suggested by the title), or did he simply push until BO and then the incident was turned into a "learning experience"?

There is one HUGE difference between the two. My money is on the latter...

[island_sands]

Originally Posted by jome

Hmm, my first reaction was "what the hell?!?"

But upon reading the original article, I'm just curious.

Was he told by to instructor to push until BO as an instructing tool(as suggested by the title), or did he simply push until BO and then the incident was turned into a "learning experience"?

There is one HUGE difference between the two. My money is on the latter...

I think we need to ask jimdoe2you personally

Jim..... do tell!

[island_sands]

Originally Posted by jome

Hmm, my first reaction was "what the hell?!?"

But upon reading the original article, I'm just curious.

Was he told by to instructor to push until BO as an instructing tool(as suggested by the title), or did he simply push until BO and then the incident was turned into a "learning experience"?

''It's something I prefer to see in a class because people will see it's a real thing,'' Stepanek said. ``

I interprete it as something that's encouraged.. however, the original article does say

Free-dive instructor pushes students beyond limits

[trux]

I think is is strongly exaggerated to tell he is encouraging them to push till BO. Here in our club in France, we are organized under FFESSM (CMAS), which has much stricter rules and safety measures than AIDA - samba is not allowed in competitions (even if you do your SP in time with it), and is penalized by 2 months of non-competing. BO by 4 months. In our club, samba is not well seen either, when it happens during training, it means automatically end of training session and the person is then surveyed stricter afterward. During trainings we focus on other things than just pushing deep into hypoxia. We do have about 3 "max" sessions per season with higher safety in place, when people are allowed to make their PB's. However, even then sambas and BO are "forbidden" and lead to a training ban for a week or two. Still, it happens at every max session that we see some nice sambas (and exceptionally a blackout), and although we definitely do not encourage people to get there, I do agree with Martin that it has an immense educative effect - newbies are pretty impressed and only then realize how serious it could be if they were alone. Before the experience they care about safety measures much more than before.

So I have to let Martin some credit - he is definitely right when telling it is good thing when pupils see a hard samba or BO in a class. Waaaay much better than when they get it alone (or with a little experienced buddy).

[Stephan Whelan]

There are two schools of thought:

1. Demonstrate how bad it is by showing or getting the students to do it
2. Ensure it never happens in a class and emphasise limits

Both techniques have pro's and con's and different instructors will teach different methods.

[jome]

Originally Posted by trux

So I have to let Martin some credit - he is definitely right when telling it is good thing when pupils see a hard samba or BO in a class. Waaaay much better than when they get it alone (or with a little experienced buddy).

Basically I agree, but you can also show it on video or at least have another instructor or staff do the demonstration. I certainly do not agree with an instructor pushing or pressuring a student to experience a BO under any circumstances or excuses.

But I don't even think that happened, that is just the first impression the article gives. Certainly doesn't sound like the Martin I know - perhaps more like another famous diver in the Miami area...

[island_sands]

The best person to answer that would be our jimdoe2you or Martin himself. The Deeperblue article offers no opinion.

[jimdoe2you]

OK, I chimed in after I received a PM from Sara. The reality is I wasn't encouraged to demonstrate a BO by Martin, the Herald article is a bit misleading.

I am starting to work with Martin and Paul on The Freediving Store - online freediving gear and more! and also on becoming a freediving instructor part time time to assist in Fort Lauderdale with the growing popularity of the sport and the FIT classes.

The reason for the BO is that I was really pushing my personal limits so I could achieve the 5:00 static breath hold which is one of the minimum requirements for becoming a freediving instructor. I was just not going to give up! I got to about 4:45 when I forgot to lift my finger and signal that I was OK. Paul said "Bring him up!", and I really think the sudden shift to a verticle position is what triggered the BO because I remember everything up until then.

They really had to convince me I had a BO because I remember everything going as planned, but Paul looked at me in the eye and said sternly, "No Jim, .....you have been out for the past five seconds!!!".

In the article they mention that I only acheived 90 feet, but what they fail to mention is that it was my one and only dive to depth during the course due to ear trouble. I was fully equalized at 90 feet and could have kept going but my right ear wouldn't play nice.

Good times!!!

[naiad]

Thanks for the explanation Jim, I thought it was probably not done on purpose as a demonstration. And welcome back!

I don't think it should be done deliberately, but if it does happen, it is a valuable learning experience.

I definitely don't think there should be any 'penalty' for blacking out, whether in competition or training. I see that as taking away personal freedom about how we train. I think that as long as the freediver and their buddy are happy with the situation, blackouts should be allowed. They already get 0 points in competition, which I agree with. I don't think it is fair to punish them further with bans from competing or training.

[trux]

The purpose of the penalty is not a punishment, but a prevention - scaring off others who tend to push too much regularly. In the club we simply have to do it, because we are almost 50, and it is difficult to survey such an amount of freedivers (around third of them are newbies each year). If a significant part of them decided to push to the limits all the time, it would be only question of time when a serious accident happens.

And I find the ban correct at the FFESSM competitions too. Additionally, we know very little about the physiological effects of the BO - they are still very little studied, and although it looks like there may be no long-term consequences, we do not really know what happens if you get into such state several times within a short time. I think it is wiser to ban the freediver at least from such extreme performances as they are usual at competitions.

[AltSaint]

At our Freedive club in Richmond, students are always shown a simulated BO and LMC. And basic rescue techniques for both. Also, warning signs of impending BO, such as blue tinging on the neck, ears, fingernails and lips.

Reports about freediving from non-freedivers are plagued with inaccuracies, and some news reporters ( not the DB ones of course! ) just love to sensationalise a story.

[jome]

Ah, thank you for the clarification Jimdoe2you - I figured it'd be something like that. Glad I can still at least somewhat trust my media reading skills

Personally I don't believe BO to be a protective mechanism any more than a car running out of gas is - rather I believe that the body has mechanisms to cope with BO short term. But that's a whole other discussion...

As for punishment, well, it's not for me to punish or not someone who BOs regularily - but I sure would not like to dive with them - which is also a personal freedom. And if I happen to be organizing a competition or responsible for a pool session, I interpret "not wanting to dive with them" as having the right to ban them if I want Luckily hasn't come to that yet - usually a little reasoning will do...

[island_sands]

Jim thanks for that, i have edited the news article accordingly.
Freediver encouraged to experience blackout in training by Sara-Lise Haith on DeeperBlue.net - Fanatical About FreeDiving, Scuba Diving, Spearfishing & Technical Diving
let me know if its ok

[naiad]

Originally Posted by jome

As for punishment, well, it's not for me to punish or not someone who BOs regularily - but I sure would not like to dive with them - which is also a personal freedom. And if I happen to be organizing a competition or responsible for a pool session, I interpret "not wanting to dive with them" as having the right to ban them if I want Luckily hasn't come to that yet - usually a little reasoning will do...

I think it is also a personal freedom whether to dive with someone or not. If someone is a serious freediver who for some reason has occasional blackouts during training, I would be happy to supervise them. If someone is a reckless daredevil who does not seem to care about their own safety, I would not dive with them.

In my opinion it is not a matter of number of blackouts, but of attitude to diving and safety.