cheap fins or expensive

[OceanMan]

I am sorry to say that I think that not much thing can be said about the efficiency of the fins out of the test you did Dave.
Speed is irrelevant when judging the efficiency of a fin because you also need to know the amount of energy you spent to reach that speed which is, as you said, totally subjective here.

Maybe by using a good pulse oxymetre at the end of the dive... and doing enough dives to do statistics...

If I rely on my own experience, I would say that fiber is alway better than plastic if the stiffness is the same.

[hteas]

There is another factor in the stiffness dialogue. How much time do you spend swimming on the surface? I have no problem getting to 30 m (in Hawaii) with my Picasso Black Teams, but send me off on a 1/2 hour surface swim to get to a dive site, or while fighting to stay in position in a strong current and I be glad to tell anyone what I think of stiff fins. I HATE THEM.
My medium glass blades also get me to 30 m with no difficulty, but they are so much better on the surface that there is simply no comparison.
I just got a pair of Omer Winter blades, and am very curious to try them out now that the water has cooled off. The glass blades may still win out however, since, when the surface water drops to 2-3 degrees C, even the winter blades may get pretty stiff, while the glass blades don't seem to change enough to notice. At that temperature I tend to notice more problems with my performance than with my fins.
Howard

[Spaniard]

Good info. from everyone. I suppose you have to factor in what your main freediving activity is i.e. pool training for dynamics, depth disciplines up and down the rope, spearfishing, recreational freediving etc. etc. I can only base my experiences on UK spearfishing where I have used plastic Dessaults, Sporasub Radicals, Sporasub Pure Carbon, Cressi Gara and Omer Millenium. I have never had to dive deep in the UK but I would say that when fighting tide and current and long surface swims I really got on with the Sporasub Pure Carbon. I am quite slight in build, weigh 70kg about 5'7" tall. However I did mentally 'worry' more when wearing them because of bashing them against rocks etc. whereas with the plastic Dessaults you don't care so much!

When I did my freedive course in the 30m SETT tank I swapped between the plastic Dessaults, Sporasub Radicals and Sporasub Pure Carbon and didn't really notice any massive difference? Horses for courses I guess.

Interestingly, Old Man Dave had a go with my Sporasub Pure Carbons in Guernsey for spearing and didn't really get on with them and he is someone who has thousands of hours of spearing experience under his belt. Perhaps we get acclimatised to one fin and adapt accordingly to it and that becomes our benchmark?

[Mullins]

Originally Posted by OceanMan

I am sorry to say that I think that not much thing can be said about the efficiency of the fins out of the test you did Dave.
Speed is irrelevant when judging the efficiency of a fin because you also need to know the amount of energy you spent to reach that speed which is, as you said, totally subjective here.

I am pretty confident that energy input was similar across the dives, if not exactly the same. If it was significantly different, I would have felt it. This is a subjective measure but it is better than relying on the 'feel' of the fins, which can be very misleading. e.g. the C4 30s felt 'snappy' and fast, but the profile said otherwise.

What the graph does say is that I can do identical dives with fins of any material and not feel any more or less tired. I think that's fairly significant. There are probably differences in efficiency, but they must be very small ones.

I do agree though that a totally objective test would be fantastic.

Originally Posted by OceanMan

If I rely on my own experience, I would say that fiber is alway better than plastic if the stiffness is the same.

If you think my test was uncontrolled (and it was to an extent), then personal experience with no objective data is even more unreliable!

[Mullins]

Surface swimming would depend on blade angle, stiffness and length. I think material would be even less relevant here.

[hteas]

Stiffness is really the big issue for the surface. I tried SpecialFins hybrids in the pool during a subjective test last winter. We had medium hybrids and stiff hybrids in identical Omer footpockets. The mediums were consistently one half kick better (14 1/2 vs 15, counting right foot only) than my medium fiberglass blades in similar footpockets, and the stiff hybrids were one half kick better than the medium hybrids (14 vs 14 1/2) in a 25 m pool, but only when completely submerged. On the surface the mediums (hyubrid or fiberglass) were so much better that there was no real comparison with the stiff blades.
I'm slowly converting my dive buddies to more flexible blades, either plastic or fiberglass.
I have heard that blade angle makes a real difference too, when on the surface, but have almost no experience with them.
My vote is for flex!
Howard

[spaghetti]

Great info by everyone no doubt. But sorry I'm loosing the centre of gravity of this discussion.
Was it about cheap vs. expensive? Carbon vs. non-carbon? Stiff vs. Flex?
These three matches don't match, they are three different questions. Cheap doesn't mean flexible, Carbon doesn't mean stiff, and in some cases plastic doesn't mean cheap (see the Omer Ice or C4 Wahoo). The plastic Sporasub HD Elite (black blade) or Gara 2000 are stiffer than Falcon 25 and Bat 25, and also much cheaper. But which is better? Better is a relative concept. So the question is:
Which is better for you?

[flying_spanner]

I agree this thread has gotten a bit off track,

One thing I've noticed when it comes to spearfishing gear, what one person swears by, someone else rubbishes.

I think that swimming with a pair of Picasso Team Black's are like strapping lengths of 4" x 2" lumber to your feet, but my dive buddy Jonathon swears by them.

I didn't like the pair of Gary Fisher Power Fins that I tried, but there must be a good reason that those fins are almost reaching a cult status with spearo's here in NZ and abroad.

Fin choice is such an individual thing, there are many factors governing your decision,

"do you scramble over rocks or do you do mostly boat dives"
"are you a spearo, or are you a pure freediver going for records"
"how long to ship goods from the US or do I buy locally"
"is my wife gonna kill me for spending $500 on a new pair of fins"

(the answer to the last one is YES ABSOLUTLY!!!!)

Take all these factors into account and you may come to a final decision on a paticular type of fin, or you may try several before trying something which works for you.

So to answer your question "Cheap Fins or Expensive" I say cheap plastic blades are fine, I love my Immersion Esclapez. Others will swear by C4 carbon, omer ice etc etc and say that you get what you pay for.

Who's wrong? well neither of us, as it all comes down what works for you, as it's such an individual thing.

[Kars]

To Dave, I just measured from you graph the spread of the fins' times leaving out the two slowest, and I found at 30m depth a difference of about 4 seconds. With the Fisher Power fins at approx 36s touching plate, and with Omer Millenium at 40s. 4 second measured over 40' is to me like a 10% difference.

I think that different fin caracteristics translate to different intensity, different workload and use of different musclegroups. Explaining why we seem to like such a wide range of different caracteristics.

Testing fins going deep is also very diffrent to dynamics in pools.
I think that differences in material become more pronounced going to greater depths.
But Dave's graph can be a good guide for the beginners to show that it's a good idea to start with a medium or soft cheap fin that are durable and comfortable with a good angle. Work on one's muscles, test different blades over a year or two, going deeper, develloping one's own style and then choose a fin matching your personal develloped preferences.

Perhabs Dave you can use the same footpockets and switch blades as you try out what you think is a typical plastic, fibreglas, and carbon blade to 50m dives. A HR monitor recording allong with your divegraph would be intresting. Have good rest between dives, laying your legs high to get rid of any acidation. When you decide to test 3 blade types,
conduct 3 sessions, shifting the order of blades used.

I'm looking very much forward to your dynamic tests, as well as you monofin tests!

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

[Shark 1980]

Hi guys,
to add my comment to question which blade is better... the expensive one or cheaper... have to say that every freediver has a different body / different kind of movement / different need and fins should reflect that.

For example my C4 works well for me, but I lent it to my friend who dives 9 years with old Omer plastics fins... and he wasn´t able to swim properly with them. He was so unhappy because it was really strange for him. So he turned back to his old plastic Omers fins.

By the way it took me about 5 diving lessons to addapt my kicking technique to these fins to could get the efficiency which these fins offer.

I hope you know what I mean...

[Kars]

Generally speaking, when you fin technique is bad, and you have no will to work on it, you're better off with cheap close healed scuba fins.

Umberto does 60m CW dives with these, so no worries they work and are very forgiving.

Happily most freedivers want to improve their technique. With this attitude you can find the good in most fins.

Now making a choice for a fin has to do with money, if you had unlimited you could buy all fins, and choose according to that unique specific situation.

Perhaps a list of questions would help a freediver in need to a satisfying choice?

1) Determine you budget, look down in your wallet when there isn't a hole there should be some cash.

2) Establish what situations you will use them in:

a) Spearing, recreational, snorkelling, deep diving, FRC, currents
b) The range of depth
c) The length of your diving sessions

3) The strength and endurance you have or want to put in.

4) The durability of the fin.

5) Future customisations needed? (switching blades?)

Putting all the answers together you should get a basic idea of the following variables:

1) softness of the fin.
2) material.

Now with budget and materials in mind draw up the list of available fins and brands, and find for each the best fit to your determined needs.

By now your list should be pretty narrow, 2 - 5 choices, now consult DB members for their experience and advice.

Visiting a few competitions, freedive - spearfish clubs to test out fins yourself is even better.

Know yourself, the sea and circumstances and it's easy to find a fitting fin.

Love, Courage and water,

Kars

[flying_spanner]

I thought it pertinent to give you all an update seeing as this thread seems to have been given another spark of life.

I've been freediving for a year now. When I started I was a full time student and money was extremely tight. So hence budget was high on my list when choosing gear.

I bought a cheap wetsuit, that has served me well. But it was time to upgrade. A nice new Beuchat 5.5mm Mundial Prestige now has pride of place in my dive kit.




Ive decided my fins will get upgraded in the next couple of weeks also.

My Immersion Green's are a great pair of fins. I got them 2nd hand for $100 and they have served me very well (and still do). Constant weight dives to 20 metres aren't a problem, nor is doing a dynamic of 100m in the pool.

So like I said I've decided to upgrade. I feel I've started to outgrow the Esclapez. My pair are quite a bit shorter than standard. (cut down by the previous owner not me)

My new fin of choice is....... drum roll please.

The Cressi Gara 300LD

My reasons for choosing this particular fin are as follows

Plastic blades can take the rough treatment and abuse I seem to give them. (I decided against composite for this reason)

Reasonable price

And most importantly when I tried a freinds pair of these they Felt right for me.

So yeah I recommend to all new spearo's buy a cheap and soft pair of fins for your first year or two of diving. Then try several freinds fins on for size and decide what you'd like to upgrade to.

[Mullins]

A fine choice!

[hteas]

Dave,
I was looking at some old threads and came back across this one. What I'm wondering is why you didn't test the Cressis when you did your test?
I've been completely oblivious to the fact that despite choosing the 300LDs for bifin use, you didn't include them in the test.
Have you tested them (3000 LDs) directly against any of the others?
Are you still using them a year later?

As far as the test goes, the results are fine. Artificially controlling for kick speed or width isn't necessary, because you were testing performance, not mechanics.Differences in actual effort were obvious. The C-4s didn't perform as well. Those results were quantifiable, not qualitative.

I did a test this fall with 3 fins to look at perceived effort. I had one Omer footpocket with a SpecialFin medium Blue Water Special blade in it, one Dessault footpocket with the other SpecialFin blade, and I brought 1 of my E-greens. I swam laps for an half an hour, swapping randomly among the 3 fins. They were all different, with the Omer footpocket feeling stiffer than the Dessault, and the E-green larger (floppier) and therefore feeling less precise, but I discovered that within the stiffness range and materials of the 3 fins, I easily adapted to any of them (Using 5 mm socks or fin keepers makes the E-greens feel as precise as the other two, but I had neither with me that day).

And going back to the original question of the thread, and repeating the answers given by several members already,
cheap is fine
They are likely to do whatever you want of them. Pay attention to the stiffness. It's a lot more important than price or materials. Much of the rest of it is for those wintertime discussions when we aren't in the water much, and looking for that next "I need".

btw I'll be wearing my E-greens tomorrow in Whittier. They're calling for 30-50 kt winds, air temperatures around 10F (-12C), and water temperature at 38-40F (4-5C) so my biggest problem will NOT be which fin is the very best.

Howard

[Mullins]

Originally Posted by hteas

why you didn't test the Cressis when you did your test?
I've been completely oblivious to the fact that despite choosing the 300LDs for bifin use, you didn't include them in the test.
Have you tested them (3000 LDs) directly against any of the others?
Are you still using them a year later?

I didn't have the Cressis when I did the test; instead I owned C4 80s and Matrix #3s. The test indicated I would be better off with something a little stiffer than the 80s for general use, the 80s being fine for up and down but poor in current. The 3000LDs fitted the bill nicely and I'm still using that pair for nearly all my diving. Nice footpockets too.