W. Trubridge: Cheating death in the deep

[Yogaman]

Perhaps some divers love doing what they're doing so much, that they're prepared to put their life on the line to experience it. But the ironic thing is that they enjoy doing it so much, that they'll also do everything to prevent dying (so they can carry on doing it again and again for as long as possible)..

[trux]

Thanks to all participants for this interesting debate. I think all of you are right, and some of you argue with others about the death wish versus life wish, just because you are not aware how well your opinions are complementary together. Let's summarize it:

A freediver has to have a very strong death wish on the descent (-1) which is so heavy that it pulls him down to the depth until he bumps the metaphysical and physical bottom (0), stares the death into the eyes, which subsequently scares the s**t out of him, metamorphosing the "death wish" into "life wish" and shoots him back up to the surface (1).

OK, end of joking. I think the author of the article simply misunderstood William, who in fact was speaking about "depth wish" and not a "death wish"

[TRITON]

Originally Posted by Yogaman

Perhaps some divers love doing what they're doing so much, that they're prepared to put their life on the line to experience it. But the ironic thing is that they enjoy doing it so much, that they'll also do everything to prevent dying (so they can carry on doing it again and again for as long as possible)..

I absolutely agree..

[wes]

For me it is something else, for sure I do not want to die and I also want to live which means I will die so that doesn't make much sense. I want to live when I want to live and when I am ready to die then die. Sometimes we don't get what we want though. There are things beyond our control (the sun might go out, a car may swerve right into my lane etc.) So what to do, well there are lots and lots of things we can control (alot more than many people believe) so we work to control or manage these things to work out like we want them to and then live!!!! So the living is being satisfied that the things we have are under control and the things that are not under control are OK that way. For me freediving safety etc is all about what I can control and also letting go and realizing I might die and that is OK as there are things I cannot control. For me then to really live you have to accept then that you might die. When all the things that we can control are set and we accept that we want to do this even though we might die (whatever it is, crossing the street, asking a girl on a date or freediving) then fear is gone, you don't conquer it, it vanishes. Fear is part of your body telling you you should be doing something differently then you are and when everything is perfect there is no voice saying, do this different, do that different, don't do this.

Maybe this is what is meant by a death wish, accepting that one may die and doing something anyway. The alternative is to deny that we could die and then live in fear as part of our body knows that we could die so creates fear in the mind as the mind seems not to be listening or paying attention that we could die as its in denial saying we can't die and we are "safe".

Cheers Wes

[shoutatthesky]

There once was a man who was afraid to die. He stayed away from roads- crossing or driving on them. He didn't engage in sports of any sort because of the physical danger involved. He never engaged in friendships of any sort and rejected any contact with his family due to that fact he believed physical proximity was dangerous due to the illnesses those people may carry. He never had a pet because he could catch any number of horrible diseases. He never went out in the sun for fear of skin cancer.
This man died alone after a short and unexciting life because he avoided every potentially dangerous situation he could. Life is dangerous and to try too hard to avoid the danger leads to us missing the most imporant and rewarding parts.
Some of my most valued experiences are also the most painful. Regrets? What is the point? You can't go back in time, you can only take the lessons learned and try not to make the same mistake again.
Freediving has its dangers obviously. Myself - I just try to learn as much as I can and enjoy. If I die (and I try to avoid it) then I die, but not without having tried to live a full life.
Guys like Will, Dave, Fondueset, and Eric, etc. epitomise this principle for me.

[Yogaman]

Nice illustration Shoutatthesky - it is like that man died while he was living.

This thread seems to be getting a lot of response, and I think that is a good thing.

In the book, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying (I think it's called that), there is something about the merits of constantly being aware of death from day to day. Doing so (not in a dreary, forboding way) causes us to live a fuller, richer existence.

Mark Foo, a famous big wave surfer, who died while surfing the big wave spot called Mavericks (in northern california) was always quoted as saying: 'To experience the ultimate thrill, you must be prepared to pay the ultimate price.'

[pehtran]

Here is how I see it:

There is a limit to everyone's capabilities. And to push the limit ever further you find yourself on the dark side of statistics.

It has been proven many times that your mind can become too obsessed by the result itself... so obsessed that it can deceive your life instinct.

There is a nice film on that theme: 20 Seconds of Joy about Norwegian base jumper Karina Hollekim: "why keep pushing it whan you know that an average life span of her type of a basejumper is six years?" See this movie if you can!!!

YouTube - 20 Seconds of Joy

I am not judging anybody... I am not saying it is wrong. But with certain people it IS about deathwish, because only deathwish can fill you up with the feelings your body and mind requires to contiune.... like with the drug.

miha

[sanso]

Originally Posted by trux

... simply misunderstood William, who in fact was speaking about "depth wish" and not a "death wish"

Will should this be true? You are not a death crazed nutter, but just want to go diving?

[jome]

Originally Posted by pehtran

Here is how I see it:

There is a limit to everyone's capabilities. And to push the limit ever further you find yourself on the dark side of statistics.

It has been proven many times that your mind can become too obsessed by the result itself... so obsessed that it can deceive your life instinct.

That's exactly what I meant by "dark side". It should be understood I don't mean it as "good/evil" or black and white. I think the best athlete would be a light side diver fringing on dark. Also one person can have some characteristics that are very "light" and others that are "dark". Well maybe we could ditch this star wars terminology

Like in the lines of:

Ambition vs. Curiosity
Externally motivated vs. Internally motivated
Short term reward vs. Rewarding through out life
Quick results, shortcuts vs. Consistency, foundation
Use every means vs. Integrity
Self Consuming vs. Self Rewarding
Lack of self preservation vs. Safety oriented
Subjective vs. Objective

So for example, a person that is totally externally motivated might get good results fast, but is likely to burn out and loose motivation once the external motivator fizzles out (no more success, no coach, no more fame and money...What ever). Where as the completely internally motivated diver may never reach his full potential, as he will be too cautious. You need a little bit of both. But being "too dark" might get fast results, but consume your motivation prematurely. A completely "light" person only get's from diving, doesn't sacrifice. Motivation lasts a lifetime but he never realizes his full potential because of the lack of ambition.

Anyway, worth to think about time to time your own motivation...

[pehtran]

Hm, funny, Jome.... I was just studying this yesterday.... purely external motivation will never be successful in the long term.... the right type of motivation should come from within and then it should be complemented with the external motivators.
It is from economic point of view (how to motivate an employee) but it works in all fields of life I am sure.
miha

[efattah]

Originally Posted by Mullins

Eric - to continue to dive deep knowing that your existing safety system is not equipped to handle the problems you know you are likely to encounter, as per your example above, is reckless. I do not see this attitude as essential or even desirable for deep diving. If you forsee problems on a deep dive, either don't do it or improve the safety. It seems you did both of these things in turn, thankfully.

I'm willing to put myself through a lot of pain and anxiety to dive deep. I am not willing to put myself at extreme risk. Those are two very different things. The term 'death wish' conflates them.

Well Dave, given how you describe getting O2 toxicity convulsions at the bottom (combined with severe narcosis), and you still state that you are happy diving with a blind counterballast system, I think we have a problem. For your style of diving, especially given the symptoms you describe at depth, I would say that diving with a blind counterballast system is extremely unsafe to put it lightly... If I were you, then at the very least I would insist on scuba divers all along the line, with lift bags to attach to you in case of a deep blackout.

This is not a personal attack, I certainly respect you and your abilities a lot, I'm just trying to point out that as individuals sometimes we lose perspective on what we are doing.

[Mullins]

Eric, I haven't done those dives yet. I am still engaged in discussions with a couple of dive doctors. If I believe I am going to be at significant risk of a seizure then I won't dive. Also, my acceptance of the blind counterweight system was made before I began investigating the whole 02 toxicity thing. Not that I expect to be able to change it at this late stage.

I should add that I do have some appetite for risk, as most of us do. I do take your point about people's tendency to lose perspective however. Having done these sort of dives in the past without incident I find myself getting somewhat blase about them and my perception of risk may have become a bit skewed. But this is the notorious "it'll be fine..." attitude, which is rather different from a drive towards death.

[Kars]

I've just finished reading the article, and indeed quit some danger and death in it, much extaggerd in my opionion. The impression that I got is freedivers are dieing every day and week. Though it may be true for the occational uneducated unobserved youngsters or old folks in hot tubs and lone spearfisherman in the world, I don't think that's the case for the compeditive freediver even with the sleddivers included.

The Death whish part.

Until now I've had twice the realisation 'one is not going to get to the surface on one's own steam'. Both times it happend in CW. The first time it was the most scary. A lot of things had gone wrong, but the effort I invested and my willpower was to strong to do the early turn. As I touched on the 54m, in cold (4c) total darkness I began my swim up. My technique sucked, my mono's heelband was damaged and the negative boyancy with the darkness made it feel like ages in my mind as the line seemed to stay almost stationary in place. I guess that at the depth of about 40m I must have had this sudden sensation of death becomming a possible reality. I overcame this scary thought by shifting on focussing on what I could do, namely doing my very best. So I continioued with beste technique I could produce, and as some boyancy and light returned, I saw some bells from the scubies at 30m pass by. Then Kurt was there at 25m, looking me in the face asking me is it ok? I shook my head and contioued swimming. At about 18m I switched to doing free immersion (I should have done that earlier!) as Glenn was buddying me. That's about the time my memory stopt recording, so I gues I went out about 8-10 seconds later at about 10-9m from the surface where Glenn and Kurt rescued me.

Now if things go wrong or it doesn't feel right I turn early, and If I'm somehow surpriced or be too far down I recognise the situation for what it is, - Oh shit! -, and focus onto the practical thought and task at hand.

I don't whish to have this 'oh shit' sensation, I much rather have the uplifting, "yes the equalisation was good, I'm relaxed, it's going great, let's do a nice perfect swim to the light". The light being the light of the surface offcause!

I think the term Deathwish does not resonate well with me. The feeling I get from the term 'Death Whish' is like some actually WANTS to die. I hope those people who are seaking and crossing their barriers are more searching for the sensations one can have without dieing. The 'Oh shit I'm not going to make it' isn't a pleasant and supportive thought.
On the other hand totally submitting yourself to the element while going down can help to relax and conserve energy. Though personally I prefere to 'wake up' when I'm getting to the plate, to check myself if everything is well and to get that last equalisation and that turn right.

My one favourite dive is the CW one to 50m in the meditarain Spain. Though it was also depth pb, the joy was in the increddible sensations I got standing on an empty flat oceanfloor with a line going up into this endless blue and experienceing a feeling of relaxation homecomming and belonging. Then a inner voice called me to start the swim back up, and so I did with ease and confidence and it became a the best dive I remember. The second best was my recent 43m CWNF in Sharm, because it was no fins, with just 1kg and no packing with hands free equalisation, it was very peacefull and relaxing and magical.

I hope William explains us in his own unedited words what it is he actually tried to explain to the reporter, for it is still unclear to me.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

[Haydn]

Great report Kars. I think we can all recognise the feellings you expressed. Just remember that if you have great safety divers in place, you can and must rely on them and help them to do their job. So when your dive would otherwise have killed you if you were diving alone, instead of thinking Oh S..., think instead of the great dives you have had, continue to the surface in peace and comfort with the full knowledge that you will wake up on the surface. As long as you reach positive bouyancy, you will get back up. Probably brought up by your safety diver. So stay relaxed and signal to them to bring you up. This way, they will not be forced to action when they gradually recognise you have stopped moving. Turn a bad dive into a great rescue. Or die, if you have dived alone.

[efattah]

Originally Posted by Haydn

Just remember that if you have great safety divers in place, you can and must rely on them and help them to do their job. So when your dive would otherwise have killed you if you were diving alone, instead of thinking Oh S..., think instead of the great dives you have had, continue to the surface in peace and comfort with the full knowledge that you will wake up on the surface.

Perhaps Loic Leferme was thinking that... that he would wake up on the surface. Sadly he never woke up, despite the excellent safety team.