David Blaine again!

[bluecape]

Hi All

I need a hand here please. I was asked about this on radio today, ( i'm a sports presenter) but was'nt aware of this 02 Static stuff, and I simply said I find 17 minutes hard to believe when trained freedivers are barely breaking 9-10. So, tomorrow, I will explain again to the listeners about the 02 thing to clear it up.

However, I dont know enough about it, can someone please give me a fairly short, but clear way to describe it to listeners who know nothing about freediving on the whole. That way I can also learn, and probably even some DB folk! :-)

Then you guys can also listen wherever you are on live-streaming at 567 CapeTalk! :-)



Kind Regards

Jeff

[trux]

Originally Posted by bluecape

However, I dont know enough about it, can someone please give me a fairly short, but clear way to describe it to listeners who know nothing about freediving on the whole.

I do not know what information exactly you are looking for, but your listeners may want to know that air contains 21% of oxygen (it is ~20% once you start inhaling it, because of the added water vapor). It means 5 times less oxygen than if you inhale pure oxygen.

So hypothetically you could suppose being able to hold your breath 5 times longer than when inhaling air. That would make ~50 min at the best ones. Of course, that's not possible, because there are several physiological factors playing against it. First O2 for the breath-hold is stored not only in lungs, but also in blood, and since blood cannot be saturated much more than it already is when breathing air, you will not gain 5 times here. But most important factor is probably so called Bohr effect that describes saturation of blood (hemoglobin) with O2, and which is greatly influenced by the content of CO2. Simplified told, the higher CO2 level, the easier blood releases O2 in cells of the destination tissue, but also the less ability it has to bind oxygen in alveoli. It means that with progressing apnea (growing CO2), it is more and more difficult to bind the oxygen that is still remaining in lungs. And since the apnea under O2 is much longer than with air, and the body produces CO2 continuously (around 200 ml/min in rest), the level grows and makes the transport of O2 more and more difficult despite having still plenty of O2 in lungs.

Prolonged hyperventilation before the O2 apnea is the way to avoid this effect. Hyperventilation lowers the CO2 level. Normally (with air) it is not desired, but with breathing O2 it is practically obligatory. So achieving long O2 breath-hold is not comparable to air breath-hold, because you fight completely different physiological factors (although they are related, of course). In plain apnea you fight consumption and hypoxia, in O2 apnea you fight especially the hypercapnia (which then may cause hypoxemia too). Also CO2 poisoning (yes, CO2 is toxic at higher concentrations) is a risk at O2 apneas.

So in fact the length of record O2 apnea is currently still very far from the hypothetical limits. Unlike at normal apnea, it is more about finding the right degree of the pre-hyperventilation, to avoid blood acidosis at the end of the apnea, and in the same time avoiding excess of the negative effects of hyperventilation (high heart-rate, brain hypoxemia, arterial vasodilatation, brain hypoxemia, depletion of myoglobin stores, ...).

The 17 minutes in Blaine's stunt are not exceptional. Already in past there were known O2 breath-holds of over 20 minutes, just they were done more for the research, and not for breaking records, or for TV shows, so nobody cared about registering them with Guinness However, it is apparent that by experimenting and finding the optimal technique, the record can be still improved significantly. Only few people are interested about doing it, because it has no practical interest (you definitely cannot use the O2 apnea technique for normal freediving), and the experimenting bears serious risks of damaging your organism. And since healthy lungs are primordial for every freediver, only few of them take the risk to play with it. Tom Sietas is an exception - he did many O2 records in past, but doing it very safely, increasing them always just by a few seconds, and staying very far from his physiological limits. He is able of 10 minutes plain-air breath-holds, but kept the O2 apneas just around 15-16 minutes (50% above his normal apneas), although he would be certainly able doing much longer ones. I think he does is especially because the TV stunts are inportant source of revenue for him, and by increasing the records by a few secs each time, he can continue doing the shows for several years.

Seeing the data from Blaine's record, where his heart-rate was around 100 bpm almost during the entire breath-hold, and knowing that he has very good skills of relaxation and controlling his HR even under the stress of TV shows, it is almost certain that he's overdone the pre-apnea hyperventialtion, or that he used chemical substances modifying his blood pH. The resulting low CO2 level (high pH) then indeed impacts greatly the heart-rate. I hope they monitored also data about the bood pH, O2 saturation and other values, so that we learn little bit more. It looks very probable, that if the hyperventialtion was little bit lower, the heart-rate might have dropped much earlier, the total O2 consuption and CO2 production would be smaller, and likely he would be able to continue longer.

[Macnaughty]

Hi Jeff,- if you just wiki it you get a cursory idea of the effect.. Not sure what level of detail you are after..
Apnea
No doubt that David Blaine performed an amazing feat,- both physiologically and showmanship wise.
But as it is his profession to be an illusionist and performance artist, one should not judge his performance against freediving results in general.
What probably gets to a lot of apneists is how easy it is, in the publics eye, to overlook Blaine's performance boosting by oxygen (or indeed if other compounds are used,- was there a doping check-up involved?)

In particular when quotes such as this are reported through the media:

"There's no enhancement, no cheating," he told Winfrey.
Blaine claims breath-holding record | The Daily Telegraph

Just the same as he claimed in his precvious "drowned alive" stunt..

[trux]

Originally Posted by Macnaughty

"There's no enhancement, no cheating," he told Winfrey.

Personally, I think that for a decent freediver (or apnea stuntman like Blaine) it is indeed very well possible achieving this without any cheating. Look at the previous Guinness record of Peter Colat of 16:34. Peter Colat is nowhere close to the performances of Sam Still, Stephane Mifsud, or Tom Sietas, and still he broke the previous O2 record of Tom Sietas easily. It proves, there are still giant reserves, and that Tom Sietas (the only freediver doing the O2 records regularly) keeps the records low intentionally.

On the other hand, if you look at the videos Blaine put online before his stunt, you can see he prepared intensively. For example he was sleeping several months in a hypoxic tent. This is used by some top sportsmen for increasing the hemoglobin content in blood. What Blaine did not tell though, is that most sport federations set a maximal limit of hemoglobin in blood - that's especially to avoid cheating with EPO, but also to avoid excessive use of the hypoxic tents. Blaine did not tell whether he respected any limits there. Well, I believe currently there are no official limits for freedivers (maybe I am wrong), so it probably would not be right calling it cheating.

Furthermore, as I wrote in my previous post, there are symptoms that he might be using chemical substances to modify his blood pH. But again, such technique is possibly used by some freedivers too, and as far as I know, the substances used are not on any black list, so it would not be exact calling it cheating.

The only "cheating" was that he announced being beating the current Guinness record of 16:14 (done by Tom Sietas), while the real Guinness record was 16:34 by Peter Colat. But since he did more anyway, it is a non issue. It would be only a problem if he did more than 16:14 but less than 16:34.

[Erik]

Impressive performance, with a ton of work put into it I imagine. I just wish that he, or the doctor, or anyone else speaking on behalf of the performance would be fervent in stating that pure oxygen is being used. The local papers, radios an TV stations all leave that out because they don't know or care.
On the other hand, if I was a performer wanting to generate press, I'd leave it out to get people arguing about it as much as possible.

The US Navy had guys doing 20 minutes on O2 long ago.

[monkeyhatfork]

Trux- on the Oprah show it was clearly stated that Peter Colat was the record to beat

[trux]

Originally Posted by monkeyhatfork

Trux- on the Oprah show it was clearly stated that Peter Colat was the record to beat

Hm, why then they speak everywhere about 16:14 instead of 16:34? Is there a mistake on the website of Peter Colat?

[monkeyhatfork]

on the show the time to beat was stated as 16:34 so no mistake on Peter Colat's part, probably just hastily done press releases

[Erik]

Yesterday I saw Blaine's research doctor speaking on the Discovery Channel and I was surprised by some of the things he said, or maybe how he said them.
He talked about cetaceans' ability to "collapse their lungs so that they can sink to great depths, then inflate them to help float to the surface", in the same phrase describing them diving with empty lungs to avoid DCS, and stating that humans do not have this ability.
Now I'm hoping that he was trying to convey points that are obvious to a learned freediver, but the wording bothered me. If my lungs are empty or not, I (and any other air-breather) do not have the "ability" to reinflate them. It is a physiological reaction (if the lungs have gas in them) that my body can sustain and adapt to at some degree, similar to a cetacean. It is not a cognitive process of somehow moving the gas out of my lungs or/and compressing/inflating them at will at any depth.

Many experts in their fields are not the best presenters- this is the case in my own profession (therapy). I hope that this expert knows what he is talking about and just didn't state it properly.

One interesting thing he stated was the changes observed in brain structure in freedivers with 1000+ dives. He did not draw negative or positive conclusions. I like to think that there is a positive outcome, similar to the permanent micro-capillary growth that has been observed in low-O2 experiments. But that remains to be seen I suppose.

Also: Blaine and the doctor were surprised by his higher than normal heartrate during the record attempt. Blaine stated after that he usually does his statics like the rest of us- facedown, but in the sphere he was held in a vertical position. My hypothesis is that that was the cause of the higher hear rate. Possibly the heat of the moment and TV and crowds etc played a factor, but Blaine'saccustomed to the spotlight.
Horizontal statics are better (IMO) mainly because the inner ear detects that you are horizontal and allows optimum relaxation. And I remember doing some research about DCS-avoidance for decompressing gas divers that showed that horizontal was a better position for optimum off-gassing, due to lowered heart rate in that position. Something to do with the hydraulics of pumping blood 'up' as opposed to across the cardiovascular system.
Thoughts?

Cheers.

[trux]

Originally Posted by Erik

Also: Blaine and the doctor were surprised by his higher than normal heartrate during the record attempt.

Not me. Read the last paragpraph of my previous post #62

[Erik]

Originally Posted by trux

Not me. Read the last paragpraph of my previous post #62

Ahha... got it. Serves me right for speed-reading!

[trux]

but you may be right anyway that the position contributed to it too

[drea]

everyone seems so interested in watching the oprah show where blaine did the o2 stunt. why not just go to her site...the whole show is not posted but a few bits and pieces are. i do wonder if kirk and mandy actually got a chance to say something or if they were only there to safety blaine. (as you can see in one of the clips, they are doing his safety)
David Blaine Risks His Life to Break a World Record
from that link, just click on further.
drea

[monkeyhatfork]

Oprah introduced Kirk and Mandy to the audience and asked them a few questions but mainly they did safety, there were some short clips shown of mandy and kirk diving with blain (cwt/fim)

[Observer]

Kirk and Mandy didn't get to say much, just a little bit at the end about Blaine's heart rate as they were wrapping up the show.

Here's a summary of what I remember of it...
- they reused the big transparent acrylic ball he used in his 2006 stunt. He was of course inside it with Kirk and Mandy up at the top, Kirk giving him coaching and signals as necessary. This was being done in Oprah's normal TV studio in Chicago, with her full studio audience in attendance, as well as an official from Guinness, three paramedics who never got to say or do anything, and David's doctor from L.A. who did speak to Oprah throughout the attempt. They did this whole show live over an hour's timeslot, but of course the local markets played the episode at its normal time slot (for me that was 4pm).
- the show started with David going underwater and breathing from a regulator. They put up a 23 minute countdown clock and said he was breathing pure oxygen and that'd he'd saturate with this until the clock ran out and the stunt would begin. (and it was repeated several times after this that he was breathing pure oxygen, not air) They also had a heart monitor on him that everyone there could see on a graphic that they'd occasionally show the TV audience. (Blaine said afterward that he could hear it himself throughout as it was attached to his ear, and that it was a bit of a distraction.)
- while they waited they cut away to pre-taped interview segments between Blaine and Oprah and showed a little film of him freediving with the PFI team in the Cayman Islands
- when the 23 minute breathe-up time was complete, he inhaled and packed a few times and then let go of the regulator and a new clock went up timing how long it was taking
- they had to cut to commercials a couple of times during his hold, and I think they did some other profile segment in there too, so a suspicious person might wonder if something funny happened while the cameras were away, but given all the witnesses present I think it was legit.
- he was cruising for the first ten minutes or so, then you could see increasing strain on his face. At the 16-minute mark he floated up to near the surface and the audience all gasped thinking he was going to fall 30 seconds short, but he didn't surface and just kept fighting for another minute. He surfaced and they stopped the clock at 17:04.4, but if you look carefully at the replay I think he was actually out at 17:02. Kirk and Mandy supported him a little but I didn't see any sign of a samba or near-blackout, and within 15-20 seconds or so he seemed to be completely normal again but obviously very very happy.
- the show concluded with him sitting with Oprah and telling her about it. She asked if he'd been able to meditate and be somewhere else like he said he'd try to be during the earlier interview segments, and he admitted that no, he was actually right here the whole time. He and his doctor were both surprised that his heart rate never really dropped very low until towards the end (when he actually had a few irregular heartbeats), and Blaine attributed it to the heart monitor sound in his ear, the setting (with Oprah being there and all), and being vertical when he's normally horizontal.
He hinted that the next feat of physical endurance he'd like to try is to break the record for remaining awake without sleep, currently at 11-1/2 days. Oh, and the guy from Guinness handed him a little plaque confirming the world record.