Exhale Diving for the "average" diver

[efattah]

For those interested, I would add that doing all your training at FRC volume reduces your apnea capacity during a full inhale or packing.

I believe it is because the 2,3-DPG level in your blood is modified and optimized for your lung volume. This controls the 'left or right shift' of the Hb-O2 dissociation curve.

I once did a hard phase of FRC training, and went to a competition and competed with inhale+packing. My performances were reduced compared to previously, even though my FRC performances were huge at the time.

The key way to watch or monitor this effect is simple. Upon starting FRC training, you will find that your FRC & exhale static times increase, and your inhale (or packing) static times decrease.

So, I think this effect would limit anyone who attempts to compete in one event with packing and another event at FRC, in the same competition. Personally I think that would be very hard to do.

[Kars]

Dear Feargus,

From my limited experience, some -less than FRC- dives to 15m wearing a full 5mm suit and 2 kg, I need to say that the near nutral boyancy is very nice, the last meters it's just a matter of maintaining the speed you have. Since one is much less negative at the bottom, its much easyer to swim up when instead of being 5kg Negative being just 2KG negative. Especially when doing CNF.

About my HR doing exhale dive in the 5m pool today.
My friend measured at the bottom a HR of 40 at my wrist. The surface pulse was 66. Maybe my lack of good sleep, and the fast swimming just before kept it from sinking further. Today I had a hard time exhaling enough to feel some decent stretch, needing to do negative packing. In short I feel 'm geting more flexible.

Can anyone please share his or her experience doing FRC CNF?

Love, Courage and water,

Kars

[efattah]

Doing FRC CNF, I can go deeper that CNF with packing.

I haven't done 'target' or 'max' dives in this fashion, but while diving with a 5/6.5mm suit, just for fun, my (safe) limit for CNF with packing was 21m, where with FRC I would routinely do safe and easy CNF dives to 25-27m.

Personally I think CNF is where FRC really shines, and this is what Seb Murat was saying all along.

[fflupo]

i did some deeper (40m+) cnf frc noseclip no mask dives last year,
even with a 5mm no weight and it is a reality check for the stroke and glide technic especially the work for the lower arms, to anchor them in the water and pull myself up; i discovered how poor my leg-stroke was;
..after the transition i let some water in my suit and start to swim up the cold water makes a big difference ( survival shock :-)

i although followed some cwt divers on cnf and the speed difference wasn t big

on recreational dives i hit the ground sometimes hard because of the negative boyancy i also like to go down in the blue without a reference of cliffs or ropes it is like a BASE jump and the bodyposition makes quit a speed difference, adjusting the angle of attack just with the fingers..

what i find is that most of the times after deeper FRC/empty sessions i need to crack in my back again, anybody has similar experiences ?

[Kars]

Originally Posted by fflupo

i did some deeper (40m+) cnf frc noseclip no mask dives last year,
even with a 5mm no weight and it is a reality check for the stroke and glide technic especially the work for the lower arms, to anchor them in the water and pull myself up; i discovered how poor my leg-stroke was;
..after the transition i let some water in my suit and start to swim up the cold water makes a big difference ( survival shock :-)

i although followed some cwt divers on cnf and the speed difference wasn t big

on recreational dives i hit the ground sometimes hard because of the negative boyancy i also like to go down in the blue without a reference of cliffs or ropes it is like a BASE jump and the bodyposition makes quit a speed difference, adjusting the angle of attack just with the fingers..

what i find is that most of the times after deeper FRC/empty sessions i need to crack in my back again, anybody has similar experiences ?

Wearing a 5mm, no weights, and still much negative at depth? How many KG do you estimate?

I'm planning to wear no weights, and 3mm suit for FRC dives to 30 +. Maybe my mediocre sized lungs 6L (188cm, 72KG) will be an advantage due to a smaller buoyancy change?
In my CNF dives I glide down, but on the way up I deliberateley have a contious stroke to avoid stop and starting which cost in my view much more energy.

FFlupo I love your base jump story. I've got a whish to make similar dives of something like 5 min to 50m in parabolic way, flying like you mentioned, equalising handsfree, being close to nutral in buoyancy, without suit or clothing, with my dear monofin.

Anyway something for the future

Love, Courage and water,

Kars

[harbour seal]

Originally Posted by efattah

For those interested, I would add that doing all your training at FRC volume reduces your apnea capacity during a full inhale or packing.

I believe it is because the 2,3-DPG level in your blood is modified and optimized for your lung volume. This controls the 'left or right shift' of the Hb-O2 dissociation curve.

I once did a hard phase of FRC training, and went to a competition and competed with inhale+packing. My performances were reduced compared to previously, even though my FRC performances were huge at the time.

The key way to watch or monitor this effect is simple. Upon starting FRC training, you will find that your FRC & exhale static times increase, and your inhale (or packing) static times decrease.

So, I think this effect would limit anyone who attempts to compete in one event with packing and another event at FRC, in the same competition. Personally I think that would be very hard to do.

eric,

i recently made a similar observation in my own training, but instead noticed a reduction of frc+static ability as inhale abilities increased.

over the winter, i trained repeated frc+static swims in the pool but in the last 3-4 weeks started doing 30min+ of inhale dynamics at the end of each session: approx 16x50m dynamic repeats---swim 50sec, rest 70sec continuous laps --- slow for many but breaking new ground for me.

as my inhale dynamic abilities increased (noticeably) each session and became my temporary focus, my frc+static swims seemed to get harder and harder. in a recent pool session i noticed a 20-30% reduction in frc+static ability (measured either by total dive time or distance), this effect i am assuming coming from the month of adding inhale dynamics to my training.

the reduction in frc seemed confusing until i read your post; i had initially hypothesized it to dietary changes, although i couldn't find any supporting data. through that period, i started taking a twice daily anti-inflammatory concoction to help ongoing knee and back problems: 1/2 tbsp fresh grated ginger, 1/2 tsp tumeric powder, and 1/2 tsp cayenne powder in warm water. the tumeric also helps mitigate gas/stomach issues associated with eating lots of legumes and pseudograins.

i had another personal frc observation regarding caffeine:
in my training experience, i rarely if ever get lactic legs as i am not training maximums but instead train frc+static repeats to mimic serial diving. prior to my last pool session, i took some added caffeine with my daily coffee in the form of cacao nibs; the added caffeine kick seemed to strengthen my dive response as my first few frc+static dives produced a much more uncomfortable static and then noticeably lactic legs in the last third of the swim. i may be off base, but this seems similar to sebastian murat's observations (in db posts) that his best frc+static dives, with associated strongest dive response, came when he started the dive with an elevated heart rate and anxiety. perhaps caffeine may have some benefit to frc diving in the form of strengthened dive response? but i wonder if the associated physiological effects are helpful overall?

cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada

[fflupo]

i did some test ascents from 50m and… measured my time on the way up:

my continues stroke.. and stroke-glide makes not a big difference only my COD goes up

for recreational 3-mm dives i use 2 kg; but if i plan to go deeper i go without any

any thoughts/experiences out there for the spine?

[Ulf]

What is COD?

[Jon]

perhaps caffeine may have some benefit to frc diving

I can drink coffee AND freedive? Sign me up!

Actually, I've been playing around with it all winter and love how easy it is to sink- no counting kicks to reach neutral, just tip over and fall. I also dropped 10 pounds off of my winter belt- using a 6mm suit in 36F water.

Since we are pretty much stuck around here with water less than 10 meters deep, without using a chainsaw, it seemed like a good time to play around with it.

I've gone back to mostly inhale dives for spearing this summer, so far, but there are times where I will get into shallow water and don't have enough weight to get down. It's nice to know that I can exhale and wait for the fish without worrying what will happen next.

I'm looking forward to trying it out, again, on a camping trip next month where we will be biking in between lakes, with the whole family, and I won't have room for anything but a mask and snorkel. Last summer I dove this way and had to crab onto every rock around to try and hold still enough to take pictures- no spearing allowed in this part of our state. this year I'm imagining dropping down and hanging out for a while without much effort. Since i won't be using a wetsuit it should be ideal conditions for such activities.

One question i have is of the long terms effect of this type of diving on other activities- running and biking. Since it seems that the lungs stiffen up a bit and everyone's inhale performance goes down, how does it effect your lungs ABOVE water when you're pushing yourself up a steep hill or running for a couple of hours?

Jon

[azapa]

I am a beginner in many senses, so see this as more of an anecdote rather than any serious testing.

Here is some fishy filming I did in the Bahamas. It was very shallow, 3 or 4M, and I need to exhale to film as I was not using weight. I started the dive about 75% VC and exhaled on the way down, you can hear them clearly, until about 25% I would guess. The remarkable thing is, even though I have done no FRC training, the dives were longer than some full inhale filming I've done recently. The longest of these shallow FRC dives was 1:45 and very easy. They were of course semi static. I think just hanging around Pete and Eric made the whole thing easier...

Picasa Web Albums - Simon - DB Videos
Picasa Web Albums - Simon - DB Videos

[fflupo]

cost of dive

[laminar]

I wouldn't say that your lungs get stiffer diving FRC - I have no problem doing sprint sets in terms of other exercise.

[Jon]

Maybe stiffer is the wrong word- thicker perhaps?

there was something posted in one of these FRC threads about it changing something in your lungs. If you can still run/swim/sprint thats all i want to know.

I was just out spearfishing and started with inhale dives, but decided to switch to FRC since I was light. After 2-3 dives my bottom times were the same- and the dives were much more comfortable.

Any issues with dropping down and doing bottom swims in FRC as opposed to inhales? Or, is FRC more for completely relaxed dives with just a sprint at the end to get you back up? I remember you saying something that it might not work as well if your fighting as fish.

Seems like a good thing to work on

[cdavis]

Hi Jon,

There was some discussion of lung adaptation and its effect on other aerobic sports in a previous thread on FRC. The gist was FRC thickens blood vessels lining the alveoli, increasing transit time for 02 and C02. Extreme aerobic training tends to thin the alveoli walls, with the opposite effect. My guess is for most of us the difference isn't a big deal, but thats not exactly an expert opinion.
I am pretty sure that I am experiancing the predicted thickening. For certain, something is changing. Other than less feeling of fluid in my lungs after long negatives, I can't feel any difference.

Connor

[Jon]

Thanks Connor,

That's what I remember reading. I'm just wondering how jumping into something like FRCdiving full time would effect other sports that I like to do (bike/run/ski/swim) where you are in aerobic mode all the time.

How's the trip so far? I wish I were there with you guys. Have you gotten our nasty weather yet?

Jon